Ep 36 Reframing Our Images of God

Many of us have picked up ideas – and ideals – about everything and anything. Ways that we think people *should* be, the ways in which we think things *should* be done, even ways in which we think God is likely to act and behave. And when the world doesn’t act the way we want it to, we tend to have feelings about that. 

In this episode we talk about the Images that have come to be in our lives – where they serve us, how some of those images have left us walking through life in fear…And we land on one question that ends up becoming central to our conversation: Who is God to me today? We hope you’ll join us. 

Additional Resources:
 Book: Awareness by Anthony de Mello
Musician: Jeffery Foucault 

#Awareness
#Idols
#ContemplativeSpirituality
#Reframing

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Transcript

 SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Images, God, imagery, contemplative, poetry, prayer, awareness, subconscious

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Kristina Kaiser  00:23

Hello, it's good to be with you! Today, we are taking a dive into talking about the various images we might have of God, and maybe by extension, the images that we might have of people in our lives. And so when we started thinking about this conversation, I was immediately drawn to a book called "Awareness" by Anthony de Mello. And if you haven't read Anthony de Mello, he's a Jesuit who passed away in the 80s. So he's kind of modern. He's quite a straight shooter, so if you don't like straight shooting, you probably wouldn't enjoy his book. But if you like someone to tell you the way it is, he's your guy. He's the one. 

So in that book, he talks a lot about images. He talks about, even, his image of God, and the fact that he needed to, at one point, do this really scary thing for him and renounce his image of God, because he wanted to just be able to open up and kind of see what really is in the world. But throughout the book, he talks about: You know, when we're mad, when we're irritated, when we're frustrated...these various emotions that can come up, that's usually on us. Because we had an image of the way something was, and when the image doesn't exactly meet what we wanted it to meet, it doesn't match, then we're frustrated. And so what are we going to do about that? And he even goes so far as to talk about these images in the form of idols, like, this is actually a really big deal. So I was pretty impressed upon by having read that, and I thought maybe we could just open it up and have a conversation.

Christina Roberts  01:55

I am really struck by his idea that he had to renounce God, or the image of God, if you will, which allowed him to come in contact with what really is. And gosh, I think that, that is such an important space that we often find ourselves in with contemplative spirituality. And yet, it can feel really scary because, if these are images of God that we've grown up with, or that we've attached ourselves to, the thought of renouncing that or reframing who God is, I think, poses a lot of questions, right? Is that okay? Am I going off course by rethinking some of these things? And I have found in my own life and people that I'm companioning with, these are important moments in our spiritual journey where, somehow, we are recognizing: There's an expansiveness of God, and when I am only talking about God in these terms are these images, I'm missing out on so much. And also times were no longer those images...yes, they are there. Maybe they are part of the wider conversation, but for this season in my life, it actually becomes unhelpful to keep myself attached to that image. And I need to grow past that into new images. So I find it both exciting and exhilarating. But also a little bit like: Ah! There's some pause there and scariness, if you will.

Chris Roberts  03:09

Yeah. I think what immediately came to my mind, when we said we were going to discuss this was when I was an eight-year-old kid and, and I was watching "Raiders of the Lost Ark" for the first time. And there's a scene in there about God coming out of the Ark and "lighting up those evil Nazis." As an eight-year-old kid, that was scary. And that image sort of stuck with me for a long time. And I had this image of God, that if you didn't walk a straight line, a straight path, and do all these things to please Him, bad things would happen. 

And so even in my subconscious now, I find myself ducking my head and sort of looking around whenever I feel like, "Oh, was that okay? Was what I said alright? Am I behaving correctly?" And so, yeah, I think imagery is super important. And I really like the renouncing images...unhelpful images of God...that we've collected along the way. And, you know, I was talking about "subconscious," I think we have so many images in our subconscious that we're not aware of. And paying attention to those things, letting them surface, and then asking the question, "What is that?" So that's, what I find to be striking about our conversation so far.

Kristina Kaiser  04:42

Yeah, this awareness piece ends up being a really big deal. Like do I even know that I have images of the way I want myself to be, the way I want others to be, the way that I want God to be, the way that I think God is? So even as I wanted to prepare for this conversation, I sat down with myself, and I said, "Okay, what are the images that I have of God?" 

And I realized, "Oh, sometimes it's "Prayer Answerer," sometimes it’s "Wisdom Giver," sometimes it’s "Nurturer," sometimes it’s "Companion," but maybe not all at the same time. And then I started to realize, even as Prayer Answerer, I found myself writing down, "What does that even mean?" 

What does it mean that God is a Prayer Answerer? What am I expecting - or not expecting - of God? What have I witnessed or not witnessed? How does that relate with what I see in the Bible? Because the Bible offers these huge moments of deliverance and miraculous healing, which often isn't exactly what my day-to-day life is looking like. So where's the comparison? How do I equate that to what I'm experiencing in my day-to-day life? So yeah. I started to realize there's a ton of images in my head of who God is, and awareness seems to be the first piece.

Christina Roberts  06:04

And it's interesting that you're highlighting, Chris, Pop Culture and movies that shape our awareness and images of God. Kristina, you referring to the Bible, and some of the things that you were taught maybe in religious circles. And it creeps up everywhere within our day-to-day life, or culture, etc. And I remember a couple of years ago, really paying attention to how people address God. Because I think, even if you're referring to God as "Lord," or as "The Divine,” or I had someone that would pray "Papa," was kind of the way in which he addressed God. And I found that to be really interesting to notice those things. 

And one person who I was meeting with, the only term was the LORD, the LORD, the LORD, the LORD. And I sort of pressed on that a little bit: What does it mean that God is your Lord, that Jesus is your Lord? And thinking about Lords in our historical context, or the idea of being a boss, kind of lording it over you...And really challenging this person?  Is that it? Is that how you want to relate to God? Is that the only way in which God interacts with you? And it was a really interesting thing. And I think they had just kind of taken for granted, "Oh, yeah, that's my Lord Jesus." You learn how to pray the prayer in Sunday school or something like that, and wasn't really even thoughtful about how one addresses. 

And so I think that's been something in my own life, this really being, aware of, "How am I addressing God, the Divine, the Inner, Jesus, the Spirit," all of those different words and language that I think really matter in our images of God and what it might mean to move past some of those into new territory.

Chris Roberts  07:39

Yeah, I really appreciate what you're saying, Christina, particularly, I know, we've talked a little bit about, sort of, unhelpful images that we draw on from the past...but, also sort of the necessity to reframe God in new images. And I found that to be super helpful. And I found the contemplative to be an amazing step forward in that. And something that's been super helpful...I know, I've talked about this, probably, too many times, but poetry. Inviting poetry to give me new imagery of who God is in my own life. And so just as a way of moving forward, I think imagery is super helpful, especially when you have an openness to the Divine and to God. I have this openness to see God in His full expanse. And you let imagery, sort of, settle in on that. I think it's a really great way to move forward. And I've also found dreams to be super helpful. How are my dreams informing how I see myself and how I see God? And so I find that to be super helpful as we think about images of God and the process of moving forward.

Christina Roberts  09:03

I like that, because I feel like, sometimes, too, we can have these cliché phrases, but when we actually start to think about "light," you know, God is light. Or He's the Light of the World. What does that actually mean? And when you think about light and all the expansiveness of light, all of a sudden, some sort of cliché thing that you might sing at Christmastime or something has this rich meaning. And so I think you're right, that poetry and expanding the language, even around some of these cliché-ish type phrases, I think, can be really enriching. 

Kristina Kaiser  09:32

And it kind of feels like, whether it's poetry, or dreams, or a show, or something else, a lot of that gives us metaphor, which then opens up...instead of just the, "I learned the prayer. The prayer was 'the Lord,'" 

...And I don't have any problem with rote things. I think they're beautiful, and lovely, and connect us to the past and all the things. But there's also, "What is today? What is the beauty in today?" So I think of, there's this moment in "Star Trek-The Next Generation," which, somehow my husband got me into watching this show. Otherwise, it never would have crossed my radar to ever watch it. But Worf is this character, he’s this Klingon that, kind of, becomes more in-tune with other cultures because of his interaction on The Enterprise, etc, etc. 

But he has this process of doing this whole exercise that he ends up teaching others. So he can blindfold himself and sense the movement of what's happening in the room around him. And you might think, "Oh, well, that's good for him," or something like that. But then he has this moment where he teaches another to be able to do this. And, of course, it doesn't go that well. Initially, he's able to take them down to the mat, if you will. But they do eventually learn. And I think that, that is, again, this metaphor-y idea for like, "Who is God to me...Not maybe just overall...but who is God to me today? What is God offering me today?" which kind of plays into this childlike awe and wonder. 

And we have a four-year old right now in our house, and we get so giddy because he will see something that he's so excited about. And he will go, "Whhooaaa!" And just the way that he says it tells you how amazed he is. Everything's amazing! And I'm not that good at, "Whoa." I have created so many systems in my life. It takes a lot more for me to enter my "Whoa" space, if you will. But there is that ability to learn and to be able to ask, "Who is God to me today? What is God offering me today?"

Chris Roberts  11:44

Yeah, I like that. I think one of the things that also comes to my mind, you know, there is the Whoa Factor. But I think we have some painful experiences that have happened in our lives a lot of times. And allowing God to transform those things that we perceive to be "negative" or whatever, not that they're not negative. 

But I think one of my favorite images of that transformation that can happen in one's life is: There's a sculpture that's made completely out of weapons from Mozambique that an artist made. And it's the "Tree of Life," and it's dismantled AK-47s that were used in the war for killing each other. And, you know, this image of the Tree of Life, you know, that's planted by these Rivers of Living Water, where our pain is there. But there's also this hope of the future. And I think that's what imagery can do for us, as well, is paint a hopeful vision of the future. 

And so not that we are trying to use imagery to escape from things that might have been painful in our life. How can we let the things that have been painful in our lives be something that God can transform into beauty? And so that's also another thing that strikes me about imagery.

Kristina Kaiser  13:17

Yeah, I think that is super meaningful, super beautiful. And I've done a lot of thinking about this over the last couple of months even: What does it mean for something to be redeemed? And how is this transformation in grief and suffering bringing us to places that are good? Because that's kind of the promise that we've been given, is that these bring us to good places, and that somehow it can all be redeemed. But not in this, like, "Oh, just let it go." There is a journey, there is a process, there's something. So I have appreciated, even, we've talked multiple times about "the evolution of our thinking and our faith lives," and this, too, creates that sense of, "How is this evolving as I live and process and journey?"

Christina Roberts  14:02

Yeah, and, Kristina, I'm thinking back to what you said a few moments ago about God as a Prayer Answerer or a Wisdom Giver, things like that, and how, you know, I do think that there are these examples, like you mentioned, in the Bible, where it's these big miraculous things. But I think, even, how does that look in the day-to-day of, "I had a conversation with someone. And in that conversation, there was some sort of an exchange that became the answer to my prayer. There was something that that person said. Or something shifted inside of me. So it wasn't, 'I'm going to the mountaintop and having like this, you know, transfiguration' type of an experience." But it's in that conversation, in those moments. 

Or, Chris, I appreciate you bringing in art, that taking this beautiful sculpture that you're mentioning of, just, the pain and refiguring that into something different and new, which, I'm guessing was a collective effort of a couple of different people coming together in a community to do that. And so I think it's important that we do have our images of God. But the way in which our inner actions with human beings continue to help evolve and shape and enrich those in our lives.

Kristina Kaiser  15:06

Yes, so even this conversation today is going to have an impact on us all, right? Both us that are having it, and as we hear it, and we continue that conversation with others. Thank you guys so much for this conversation. It's a good place to begin!

Well, now is the time in our podcast where we take a moment to talk a little bit about what we are into. So what are we into?

Christina Roberts  15:38

I am into Tandem Bikes. So we have an attachment...I have a five-year old, a currently-five-year old. And we've had one of those things that you, kind of, carry your child on behind you over the years. But this last year with COVID, I haven't been biking him to school. And so we now have a tandem because he's old enough to actually pedal with me. And so we are practicing. There's a large hill by our house on the way to school. And school starts next week here for us. And I have been practicing, and it's a little bit different because of the tandem...there's wiggling and there's jerking. And he is involved in the process, and we're trying to get into a rhythm of, "Alright, we're going up the hill. Let's pedal together." So there's this partnership in tandem with a young one. That is new to me, so that is what I am into this week is Tandem Biking.

Chris Roberts  16:25

Well, I have been into a Wisconsin-native music artist named Jeffery Foucault, he's sort of off the grid a little bit. He grew up not far from Madison. He currently lives in Maine. And I've just discovered, like, 10 albums worth of music that he's put out and it's like I said, Americana music. And what I find so fascinating about him is his lyrics. First of all, I really like his musical style. But he is an artist that has some depth to him. He looks at the world in an honest way. He also looks at the world in a curious way. So I have been into Jeffery Foucault.

Kristina Kaiser  17:14

How exciting! I'll have to check that out. And we will put that in the show notes for anybody who's interested in checking it out as well, just so you know to look there. 

So I have been into, all summer actually, lawn lines. I have really enjoyed...actually, just a little background: I was banned from mowing the lawn maybe a decade or so ago in our marriage because I would mow over the rocks, and it would bend the frame of the lawn mower. And so I was banned from mowing the lawn, which was ironic because my grandfather owned a landscaping business. And so, my first job was mowing lawns, although, I will also say, I have a lot of really crazy stories from being on a riding lawnmower as a 15-year-old for eight-hours a day. But all to say, it has been so much fun for me to change the way that the lines go and get just a little bit artistic about it. And then bring everybody to the window after the fact to be like, "Look at it. What do you guys think?" which is very odd. So I've been into lawn lines, and the season's nearly over, so I've really got to soak it all up now. 

Thank you everybody for being with us. If you are looking for more resources, we do invite you to check out thecontemplativelife.net. And if you have time, give us a rating on iTunes so that others can find us too. Thanks so much. We'll see you again soon.