Ep 34 Extroverts and the Contemplative

Today we are joined by Grace Schmelzer, co-leader of numerous online contemplative groups and soon-to-be spiritual director. She shares with us today the struggles she’s experienced in being an extrovert approaching contemplative practices. But take heart! She also shares with us what has been enjoyable to her as well as what she was surprised to find enjoyable. May all of our extroverts out there feel invited to the contemplative table!

#Extrovert
#Silence
#Solitude
#Retreat 

Additional Resources:
Book: Journey to the Heart, Edited by Kim Nataraja
Book: The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence
Website: www.blueoceanfaith.org
Website: www.journey-on.net 

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

contemplative, extrovert, silence, spiritual, retreat, solitude, extroverted

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative life.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts. 
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.  

Kristina Kaiser  00:24

Hello, it is great to be with you! Today we are joined by my longtime friend and companion in spiritual things, Grace Schmelzer. Grace is, among other things, a wife, a mother of five. And nowadays, Grace and her husband, Dave, lead several online Contemplative Community Groups, all internationally. She's also finishing her training to become a spiritual companion. So she joins us today to talk about "Extroverts and the Contemplative." Hi, Grace! How's it going? 

Grace Schmelzer  00:59

Good, good! Thanks so much for having me on the podcast today. 

Kristina Kaiser  01:03

Yes, our pleasure! And just to give all of our listeners a little bit of a lay of the land, a common thing that I know I hear from people is that they don't know if they're really cut out for a number of the things that they imagine that the contemplative is about. So they don't think they can be still. They don't think that they'll like being quiet, these kinds of things. And I get it, because I'm somewhere in between introvert and extrovert. I'm a huge fan of external processing. I find conversations super exhilarating. I love using words in my spiritual practices. But obviously, hence, the topic of this podcast, there seems to be something that the contemplative life brings for the extrovert as well. And so that's what we're talking about today. 

And so, Grace, you being able to speak from the perspective of the extrovert, we'd love to hear about some of the challenges and the mindsets that you've experienced as you've approached the contemplative life.

Grace Schmelzer  02:04

Yeah, I feel like it's true. I don't know, even, to this day, that I would identify myself as a contemplative. I don't know that I feel like I own that title for myself. But at the same time, I'm super intrigued, and drawn, and helped by, and enriched by various contemplative practices. 

And one thing that's been really rich lately for me is reading and learning more about the early church fathers and mothers. So I was reading a chapter in the book, "Journey to the Heart," where there was a whole chapter on Origen. And his spiritual practice, the writer says, is that he would stand and face East because Jesus is the Son (Sun), that, you know, that we're facing him, in one sense. And it sort of symbolizes that to us. And then you have your hands upraised. And I thought, "I'm gonna try that! I think that might be good for me." 

Christina Roberts  03:04

Maybe we could back up a minute to talk about that first initial thought on, "I wouldn't consider myself a contemplative," maybe that word seems a little bit out of reach for you...I wonder if you can say more to that, because I'm guessing that other people maybe have that same sentiment. And so I would love to hear more about: What is it about that word that maybe appeals to you? And what is it about that, that maybe feels like, "I don't know if I make the cut when it comes to that?"

Grace Schmelzer 03:28

So I think the word "contemplative" to me...I'm just beginning, through my spiritual direction training program, to be exposed to people like, well...like Brother Lawrence. I read the Brother Lawrence "Practicing the Presence of God" book last month, and I just was so helped and so inspired. He talks about thanking God and praising God. But he also just talks about lifting your heart to God. Like, some of these things are not about talking. But you're aware of God's presence. You're continually lifting your heart to God through the busy-ness and work of your daily life. So I thought, I can be doing that while I'm doing the laundry or while I'm brushing my teeth.

"Lift my heart to God." He says, "I do everything for the love of God." That's so appealing. There's an aspect to it that's not just about what I'm saying or what God is saying to me. It's like, "I'm in God's presence. I'm lifting my heart towards God." 

I think one of the biggest things in learning about the early church fathers and mothers was: They viewed the goal of the spiritual life as "union with God." And I kind of think, "That's a big idea!" 

And nobody in my spiritual background talked like that. I feel like what more gets discussed is your relationship with God, or connecting with God, or experiencing God, and that's all great. But I feel like, "Oh my gosh! Let's be real. Union with God is more ambitious."

So I feel like there's this bigger world out there in the whole Christian tradition that I am just beginning to learn about, and explore more, and it's so appealing to me. And I want more of that! 

Chris Roberts  05:16

I think I can identify with some of the things that you're saying, Grace. I, too, am an extrovert. I'm a big personality in the room. I talk a lot. I share stories. And, as an extrovert, my temptation is, "What is the next thing? What is the next big thing?" And I'm wanting to go to the new adventure.

A contemplative practice for me is maybe not moving on to the next thing, even though I'm in the room, and I'm super excited to be with people, right? That's the energy that I carry. I'm super excited to be with people. But I don't really take in some of the other individuals around me and some of the energies that they have. And so sometimes, the contemplative practice for me has been "not going to the next thing." But, "What just happened in that one thing there? How do I think about that? How do I take that in? How do I sit with some of the relationship dynamics that just occurred, whether they're uncomfortable, painful..." Instead of just moving on to that next thing, how do I bring contemplative practices into just sitting with the emotions of what just occurred? So maybe you can speak to that, and some of the ways that you've engaged with extroverted energy and being contemplative?

Grace Schmelzer  06:32

I'm off the charts extroverted, I feel like I struggle to get still. But at the same time, it's not like I'm incapable of trying some things. But I feel like I've kind of needed some baby steps and a little bit of a wider palette, if I can say, like a wider palette of: Here's some things you can experiment with. That has really helped me.

Kristina Kaiser  06:53

I think you're bringing up reasonable points around, "What does it take to include the extrovert at the contemplative table," if you will? So, if you were taking a look at the span of it, do you find like, "Ooh, this really helps me get engaged! This really helps me feel included. Are there ways in which the Contemplative Extrovert can be invited better? Like, sometimes we talk about inviting the introvert. What I hear you saying is, "Invitation is kind of a big deal in the midst of it," right? Because this doesn't come naturally to me. So if invitation is given, that actually really helps me get to a space that turns out to be more meaningful.

Grace Schmelzer  07:38

In my spiritual direction course, they have certain commitments you have to make to be part of it. And one of the commitments is you have to take a quiet day once a month. And I, kind of, initially said, "Oh, that's fine. I mean, I try to take at least a half day of Sabbath every week." 

So I'm doing that. And then my spiritual director said at one point, "No, it's not the same as your Sabbath." And I thought, "What?! What do you mean by 'a quiet day?'" And they keep talking about the importance of silence and solitude. And honestly, I keep stumbling over that.

I think, though...I actually did take a retreat away to the mountains. (I really like being in the mountains.) And I rented the cheapest, little, tiny Airbnb room I could. And I had a couple days away. And it was glorious to be alone. But I did a mixture of walks out in nature, and journaling, and reading and... But I realized, it was really filling to me to have that. It was almost three days by myself. And I wasn't responsible for Dave, or my kids, or the household or, you know, I wasn't returning calls. And so it just was really glorious to have time alone with God. So that was really filling and encouraging. And I realized, "Oh, I do you think there's an aspect of 'silence and solitude' as part of that." And I realized: I do enjoy that!

Chris Roberts  09:01

So I think, if I'm hearing some of your thoughts about being in this contemplative world, you're not fully settled in. 

Grace Schmelzer  09:13

Oh no! 

Chris Roberts  09:14

You can't completely identify. But I also hear a willingness on your part to put your toes in the water and to try some of these practices. 

I can totally relate with you, having gone on a six-day Silent Retreat, and I'm like, "What the heck am I gonna do for six days of silence?!" But I would say it was such a beautiful opportunity for me, as an extrovert, to dip my toes into the waters of silence and solitude. I can't say that I am perfect at silence and solitude, but you know, I have a willingness to attempt it more and to get the richness that silence and solitude can bring to us. And so I love just hearing that you are willing to dip your toes in the water, to come experiment, even though, you know, I think we all can get hung up on words sometimes. But look at that adventurous spirit in yourself to participate in these practices that I believe are meant to be beneficial to us!

Grace Schmelzer  10:17

So what happened for you, Chris? Because I have to say, I've never done a six-day Silent Retreat. That would be a long time for me! What happened for you? How did you...what did you do during your six-day Silent Retreat? What was that, like?

Chris Roberts  10:30

I will say briefly that I wrote poetry. I engaged in some silence. And then I would write some poetry from my times of silence. I would take some times of silence, and then I would say, "Well, from that time of silence, what melodies can come from my guitar?" And I would just play the guitar without words...just, what melodies come from me, from silence? So I think those are rich things. 

I don't know if anybody else has anything that's come from times of silence and solitude?

Christina Roberts  11:10

Well, maybe I'll just mention, too, you also took long bike rides. And so I think that when we reduce "contemplative" to saying, "It is solitude and silence," I think that's very reductionary. I think that there's a whole world of contemplative. 

And, Grace, I appreciate you naming union with God. That's going to look different for every single person listening today. It's not that you have to do this. And I think sometimes we can get in these ruts where, back in the day, it was like, "to be a strong Christian in the evangelical world" meant: "You got up early in the morning with a Bible to do a quiet time." And I'm not a morning person, so that never worked for me. And so I think sometimes when we try to fit into these things that are ill-fitting and aren't quite where we're at, I think that can turn into a reductionary thing. And so, Kristina, I really appreciate your framing of the conversation today of "What does it mean to include extroverts? And how can we really expand the definition of what it means to engage in contemplative practices?" So I don't know if you have any final thoughts for us, Kristina?

Kristina Kaiser  12:09

I am with all of these comments as we're coming to a close. And yes, if I'm sitting alone in a space and looking to become aware, I might draw. I might write out lyrics, if I need to not bother somebody else's quiet or something. So there's so many ways to engage. And I think that they're all meaningful. And I enjoy getting to experience as many of them as possible. So thank you, Grace, so much for being with us today and talking about the challenges of approaching all of this and coming at it fresh in the middle of life, and what that looks like. I think it's meaningful to have the conversation. So thank you very much.

Grace Schmelzer  12:53

Thank you guys, for having me. It's fun to be with you and to be engaging around this whole topic. I'm excited for what you're doing in this podcast.

Kristina Kaiser  13:10

So now is the time in our podcast where we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So tell me friends, what's going on in your lives? 

Christina Roberts  13:19

Well, I am into mason jar salads. And this is something that, actually, before the pandemic, my kids had a little business where we would make Mason Jar Salads for some of our neighbors, and it was a regular part of our diet. They're so fun. And so we currently have some international students staying with us this summer from Spain and from Panama, and I introduced them to that concept. And I just saw our Spanish student making her Mason Jar Salad to prepare for her afternoon classes, and it delighted my heart to see this because they had never heard of that before. So I am into the joys of Mason Jar Salads.

Chris Robert 13:54

Well, I am into audio production. I've been learning a little bit more about what it takes to Master - Master an audio file, Master a project. And so I have been taking on some new videos to learn about how to bring levels up to "industry standard" and how to make things pop in a mix. And so I have been all about Audio Mastering.

Kristina Kaiser  14:27

Wahoo! I cannot do audio mastering at all, so I will give it all to you. I think I have been into mint extract from scratch. So we started a number of gardens around the house, one of which was an herb garden. And the mint, which was a scraggly little thing, took over and is in force! And so I went to the internet and asked, "How do you use mint?" Oh my gosh! And it turns out you can make extract out of vodka and mint. And you basically let it soak for two months. And then you have an extract, which I'm into it. We're going to do it! And apparently you can also make mint pesto. That's going to happen! But what I really into is mint extract. 

Well, thanks everybody for joining us today. If you would like more resources, you're welcome to check out thecontemplativelife.net. If you have a moment, we'd love for you to rate us on iTunes so that other people can find us. And then we'll see you soon. Talk later!