Ep 30 Ex-vangelicals

Ep 30 Exvangelicals

Exvangelicals are people who come from evangelical traditions but who no longer identify as such. Many have begun speaking out rather than quietly moving on. And so today we talk about it: How do we live into new spaces as we experience change in our lives? Where do we turn as our ideas about our faith lives evolve? What do I do with the grief and the angst that comes up in me sometimes? 

#evangelical
#mystical
#companion
#evolution

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

evangelical, scripture, faith traditions, tradition, companion

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens:

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you join us.

Chris Roberts  00:24

Hello, it's great to be with you. Today we'll be talking about Exvangelicals. And this is a newer term to describe people who come from evangelical traditions but no longer identify, for a variety of reasons, such as political, doctrine, or some of the sub-culture aspects. And there seems to be a growing trend of young people who grew up evangelical and now consider themselves exvangelicals, and how they are speaking out against this faith string, as opposed to just quietly moving on and distancing themselves from evangelicals. So I'd like to talk about this today and see what your guys' thoughts are on exvangelicals. 

Kristina Kaiser  01:13

Woohoo! Here we go! I think, so much of this reminds me of change in one's life and change, maybe evolution, even, in a way. But change is both beautiful and scary. So, like, I love it, when the leaves change in the fall. That is so beautiful. But there is also death in the midst of that. So there's this beauty that's all wrapped up in death. And, and I can think about how this has affected me in other arenas of life, like, I was an opera singer. So if the body had a big change, either, like maybe you were larger or smaller than you had been, there was all of this question mark, things like: How do I breathe in this new body? Will breathing work? Well, my voice work. And largely The good news is: It does work! You just feel different. 

But I feel like, with the exvangelical conversation, the change is sort of a spiritual conversation, and there are still question marks that come up around that, many of them relational. It can feel like, well, there's all these people that we've interacted with in our lives? And how do we connect now? What can we talk about? Are there things we can't talk about? Just so many questions about, "How do I live into my new space, as I experience this change in my life?"

Christina Roberts  02:38

Yeah, and I think one thing that contemplative spirituality offers is the ability to ask questions and just sit with the question, as opposed to feeling the need to provide answers. And some people call it "the mystery" or the "mystical." But I think that that's super helpful in this conversation as well, because there are a lot of unprocessed questions that I think are rising up in people, which is why they're leaving, again, for the various reasons that you named, Chris. But we're still left with this unmetabolized, undigested...like, the questions, somehow, have to be digested and deciding: What do I absorb and keep for my life, and what do I get rid of from my life? And I think that the contemplative practices are just such an important piece of really helping one to process through some of those very deep, and again, I think we're talking about people who, from maybe birth, or from very young ages, have been learning and singing the songs and doing the things. So these are kind of "deep in our bones ideas" that really need some space to breathe and to process.

Chris Roberts  03:39

Yeah, and I really appreciate what both of you guys brought up: Change, how does one view their faith, it being deep in their bones? And I think one of the things that comes up for me is: I've spent quite a bit of time in the evangelical world, and I was part of a faith tradition that would consider itself sort of a Holy Spirit, charismatic, evangelical. I think with the Holy Spirit, or the part of the movement that was sort of mystical, it was sort of focused on experience, sort of promotes this idea of these connection points with God and the Divine. 

The other part of it sort of values the Word or Scripture or...they're there a lot of different things that they want to call it. I think, what tends to happen with those that have such a high value of, or a literal interpretation of the Bible, is they run into these relational connections that oppose some of the things in the Bible. And then they're forced to ask these questions: Okay, I have this relational connection. And there's this thing that I believed. And either I just cut them off relationally or I engage with scripture in a new way. And I think that's one of the things that I see happening with these exvangelicals. They're running into these relationships. They're having to question the things that they believe because relationship seems to be super important to them. And so that's one of the things that comes up for me as we talk about exvangelicals.

Kristina Kaiser  05:20

Yeah, there's the notion of relationship. There's: How do I approach this scripture now? Which I think has totally evolved for me over time, and now it's a little bit a part of me, to the point that I don't even sometimes know anymore that, that was the change. It's made it's complete cycle so that I don't know where it started or ended. But every now and again, I might run into a conversation that reminds me, "Oh, yeah, there was a different way that I was thinking." And at other times, there's this deep grief inside of me, for...I miss the simplicity of, "I just can save the answer, I can recite the same old thing," because now I live in a world where I embrace story and what is inside one's heart and listening for the Spirit's prompting. And this is a whole world of gray, right?! It's not a world of black and white. And even the labels, like, as I have walked my life, I've heard all these different labels pop up. And my instinct, my reaction is to say, "No label for me! I don't want to label!  I am just me!" So sometimes I have a counter, "I'm not doing the labels because they keep changing, and they're too hard!" So yes, I think there's angst that can pop up in the body. There's grief that can pop up, things like, "But I liked that song. And now, I'm not sure if that song works anymore." There's emotion behind all of it.

Christina Roberts  06:58

Yeah, and it's interesting. I'm really grateful, I have an opportunity to companion with people who do maybe come from an evangelical tradition. Others, you know, Catholic, Lutheran, more main line. And I really appreciate it, because those that have grown up evangelical, there is, Chris, to your point, this very deep appreciation and/or interaction with the Bible, with Scripture. And so it is so beautiful to watch a scripture that maybe has been a trigger or, you know, has been something that has been such a negative quote unquote, negative experience for them, get reframed, have a have a fresh insight that it's like, "Wow, how have I gone my whole life and never seen this scripture in that way?!" 

And it's, you know, kind of like those optical illusions that you learned about in Psychology 101 where, when you look at the picture, there's the old lady and the young lady. And depending on which way you're looking, it's the same picture, but it's offering a different view. I think, you know, that, that is happening with Scripture. And I think that is such a beautiful redemptive thing. 

And yet, where does one find space to do that, right, because I think the average church on a Sunday morning, again, you know, Kristina, to your point, we are being taught and talked to, and these are the rules, the black and white that you follow. And so these spaces, I think, are few and far between where we can actually interact in some fresh ways and see our questions actually emerge into these beautiful insights to Scripture that we otherwise would have missed. 

And so I think that's something that I've been appreciating a lot lately is...and almost like...I like to use this phrase of: Who has been holding the highlighter of Scripture? Because we have the entire Bible, and I think that somebody has held the highlighter and said, "These are the important verses. These are the ones that are a healthy diet that, we can quote that first and know it." 

But when we switch the highlighter and say, "Well, what happens if we highlight this first? Or what happens if we highlight the second half of this piece, as opposed to the first half?" All of a sudden, that just completely changes and shifts for people. And so I would say that that's a really neat thing that I've been experiencing lately with this demographic.

Chris Roberts  08:59

Yeah. And I love some of the things that we're talking about here. Especially identity markers. I really love the home that a lot of people have found in the evangelical movement, this community, this group of people that have sort of more of a missional outlook in life, and embracing the Good News, or the Great Commission, and going and telling people about Jesus, and...sort of these identity markers that a lot of people have called home. And I think home is an important place for people early on in their faith traditions. 

But then I think we're always invited to go deeper. We're invited to leave these identity markers behind and wander in the wilderness. And what was home has now become something that I need to...I need to go on a walkabout. I need to find God. 

And I really appreciate this group of people, the exangelicals (and the evangelicals!) But I really appreciate that they're wandering out into the wilderness and they're having these, these questions of "where is God in the middle of all my questions, in the middle of this experience, this challenging experience?" Like, the group of people that I called my own, I don't really want to leave them behind. How can I embrace the things that I feel like God is doing in my life, and then somehow, sort of, come back? So I really hope that the exvangelicals and the evangelicals can sort of have some middle ground where they begin talking to one another. And so that's something that I hope for, for the future.

Christina Roberts  10:57

And, Kristina, maybe just to pick up on what you were mentioning earlier about the grief, I think that, that is really important to name. And I think part of that is: Yeah, there's sadness. But there's also anger. And I think that, that is a very real emotion that is important to companion with others. In that anger, I think sometimes when our eyes are open to a different way of viewing different people that otherwise maybe have been excluded from our faith tradition, there's an anger that rises up of, I think, maybe feeling like the wool was over our eyes. Or: how did I miss this? Or, I think sometimes there can also be a regret, like, "Man, where would I have been had I not been in this tradition," etc. And so I think these are all very real emotions that one goes through in this grieving process. And that's a very tender space to be in. It is not to be rushed. And I think sometimes, you know, Chris, that's a wonderful ideal of having that. And I think, "Boy, that is way down the road of..." if that can be possible, because there is so much inner work. 

And yet, to your point, I think oftentimes, it's family members. We have a beloved sibling or parent or grandparent who comes from those faith traditions that we now have rejected and said, "It's toxic for us. We can no longer be in that environment and do well." But yet, this is my grandma who I love! And so how do I relate to my grandma, who maybe is still evangelical loves that, and I don't? So I think these are, again, just some very tender spaces that we're navigating.

Kristina Kaiser  12:29

I think what we tell ourselves about that seems to have a big impact in the whole experience. So sometimes when we're angry, we might say, like, "I was lied to!" right? And then, if I can sit and be a little bit still...I think of, even with children's stories, I think I've just been really open with my kids to say, "You know, we just didn't tell you everything, because we didn't know how much of that you could really handle at that time." So sometimes an open conversation is helpful, sometimes a moment to be still and look for, "Is there a better story inside of me than this painful story that keeps coming out?" Because it is a healing process a lot of times. And, Chris, I love the notion of "How do we work together?" 

I have some really funny stories...I misinterpreted a neighbor recently and was like, "Yay, that sounds great!" And then I asked Dominic, "What is this thing we were just talking about?" and it was totally not what I thought it was. I was like, "Oooh! I wouldn't have been quite that enthusiastic." 

But on the other hand, the upside is that, that guy felt celebrated for a second. So that's still a connecting moment, and I still value connection. And I still value people, I still value loving. And I still value the work that we can do in order to better our society together. So I think there are these points of connection that I don't want to lose, that I want to hold on to, and cultivate. And who knows what else could happen after that, but at least starting there.

Christina Roberts  14:09

Yeah, and I think it's important to mention that, again, this can feel very lonely, like I'm in no-man's-land, and who else is here with me? And so, if I can just give a plug for Spiritual Companionship, and anyone that's listening that would appreciate having that, we meet with people over FaceTime, Zoom, phone, in-person. And so we are not limited by geography. So if you find yourself maybe with some of these questions and feeling like "I don't quite know how to process this, and so I'm either ignoring it or getting frustrated by it," I think those are normal things that can happen. We would invite you to reach out at info at thecontemplativelife.net and, you know, try one time and just see how it is. And hopefully we could be part of your journey and help you to process some of these very deep and important topics.

Chris Roberts  14:54

Well, thank you for that. invitation, Christina. And thank you for this conversation that we've had.

At this point we want to move into what we are into this week. What are we into this week?

Christina Roberts  15:13

I am into lakes. I am just really appreciating lakes and it doesn't matter if they're big lakes, small lakes. We recently...our daughter's birthday, she wanted to do a day trip with some of her friends to the lake. And it was actually a chillier day We had, had scorching hot days, and then the one day that we chose to go to the lake was chilly. But they played in the lake for hours, did not want to get out because the water was warm, and just the delight of beaches and lakes and seeing beautiful trees on the water; I'm just really appreciating.

Kristina Kaiser  15:44

I am into fresh herbs. We finally have been able to like realize this dream of having an herb garden just outside the kitchen. And so the basil has come up and cilantro has come up and the mint has come up and the oregano! So we just have been going outside and snipping these fresh herbs and putting it in our food. And then our food is like: Puh-Pow! Oh my gosh, that's amazing! So that is my life right now.

Chris Roberts  16:10

Nice. Well, I have been into summer drinks. I am sort of the drink person around our house, whether it's coffee in the winter or iced coffee in the summer, but I've been making teas, iced teas for my wife. And I've been exploring different types of sparkling water, adding fresh squeezed lemon juice to carbonated water. And so I've really appreciated cold beverages over the past couple of weeks. And I look forward to exploring more flavors as we get deeper into summer. I really like geeking out on different beverages. 

Well thank you for joining us here at our podcast and we are so glad that you found us and if you would like to rate us on iTunes that really helps us out, that helps other people find out about us and, once again, we'll see you next time.