Ep 23 Vocational Discernment, Part II

Today’s podcast is a continuation of a conversation that began after we had officially ended last week’s podcast. The questions that kept us talking: Is a conversation about Vocational Discernment for the privileged? Or is this a universal conversation that spans many walks of life?  

And from there the questions kept coming: 
What if our current jobs can be stepping stones towards our dreams? 
What if even the small things about what we enjoy mean something to us? 
What if we can be apart of helping others thrive?
Does being unhappy inhibit us from reaching our goals?  

Join us as we wrestle with these important questions!

#Dharma
#Contemplation
#Hopes
#Dreams 

Additional Resources:
Book: The Dream Manager by Matthew Kelly
Book: We Should All Be Millionaires by Rachel Rogers

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Transcript

Dominic Kaiser:  0:06  

Welcome to the contemplative life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. I'm Christina Roberts. I'm Chris Roberts. I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Christina Roberts:  0:28  

Hello! It is great to be with you! Well, today we are going to do actually a Part Two of Vocational Discernment and how the contemplative helps with that. If you tuned in last week, we had a very generative conversation. And we kept recording after the fact and thought: You know, I think there's some more to say here. So let's just do a part two. 

So if you haven't had a chance to listen to last week's episode, you may want to check that out first, and then come back to this one to listen as we continue the conversation around Vocational Discernment and how the contemplative helps with that. Let's dive in. 

…As we're talking, I find myself struggling. I'm questioning, to your point, “is this for the privileged?” And part of me is tempted to say, “Yep, I recognize that privilege.” And part of me is tempted to say, “I think that we're hard-wired, like there's something in us, that the divine is at work.” I don't know that it's just for the select few, necessarily. I don't know. 

But even to your point about getting to do 90% of what you love, this person is well advanced in his life and career and that wasn't always the case for him. He incrementally worked his way towards that and had to come to grips with…and this is vocationally. I don't know that he's saying his entire life is 90% doing what he loves. He's specifically saying that with his vocation, he has gotten to the point where, vocationally, 90% of the work he does is stuff that he actually likes, that he enjoys and thrives in. And as I was listening to that…and I think I reflected this to you yesterday, Chris, I feel that way too, I can honestly say that what I do for my work, I thoroughly enjoy. That has not always been the case. And I think it's been a lot of reflection and difficult conversations and admitting things to my board or to other people and working together towards that. But I think I'm showing up better for my work because of that. So I don't know. Am I a lord or a lady? I don't know. These are interesting questions. 

Chris Roberts:  2:23  

Well, I think you have a person in your life who loves to see you thrive and who does some things for you that frees you up to do your Dharma or whatever. Now, is that, you know, equality? I don't know how to answer that question. But is my is my role in life to be serving? Is that my Dharma? These are great, great questions that I don't know the answer to. And getting very personal here, right?

Christina Roberts:  2:58  

Yeah, well, this makes me think of a book I recently read called “The Dream Manager.” And it's one of those business books. But it's a fable, a parable. And just to say, Patrick Lencioni, kind of made these ideas popular. But this book is not Patrick Lencioni. This is Matthew Kelly who tells a story about a business. And then, the second half of the book is actual real life. This is how it works: This particular fable was about someone who owned a janitorial custodial company; he was a millionaire. And he was meeting with his manager because they were experiencing this huge turnover rate, like every three months, they were having to re hire. And so they were incurring a lot of costs, having to train and hire new people. And some of their contract workers were saying, “Look, things are falling through the cracks, there's always new faces. The work is getting sloppier. And so we're going to put you on probation for 90 days. And if the work doesn't improve, we're going to go with another company.”

 And so they decided, “We need to figure out what it is about the turnover rate. Why are people leaving?” And so, the main guy was like, “You know, it's because they want more money.” And he said, “Maybe. But I think it's important to ask the people what it is that that they see, and to get the information from them.” So they decided to do a survey. 

And when they did the survey, overwhelmingly, the data was that people were leaving because of transportation issues, because most of them did not have vehicles. And if you're cleaning an office and getting off at midnight, it's either unsafe to be waiting at the bus stop for transportation, or, if you're getting off at odd hours, there's not a route or transportation that goes to your neighborhood. 

And so it had nothing to do with not wanting the job. These people actually did want to work and needed the job. But due to transportation, they were unable to do that. So they ended up creating a shuttle system for these employees where they would drop off in the neighborhoods. And if you were getting off after a certain hour, they would take you directly to your home. So that one change increased their productivity and the turnover rate went down, the average being three to six months. So then they thought, “Okay, we're on the right track. Let's do another survey to figure this out. Why are people leaving?”

A by the third round of this, someone on their team said, “You know, I think, in all honesty, people leave this job, because, let's face it, it's dead end. No one as a kid dreams of becoming a custodian. And there's only so much motivation that you can give someone cleaning stadiums and offices and vacuuming and the like. That's not a glamorous job, right?” And so they decided to do a survey and ask people, “What are your dreams?” Because she said, “What if this could be a stepping stone to something, as opposed to being just a dead-end job. Maybe this job can be a stepping stone for people.” 

And so they did this survey to determine what people's dreams were. And it was wonderful to kind of see. A majority of the dreams were to own their own homes. Some people wanted to have a vacation, buy a car, learn English more fluently, get a college degree, all these different things. And so as a company, they hired what they called a Dream Manager to meet with these people quarterly and to help them determine their dreams and how the company could help their employees work towards getting to those things. 

And so they would run seminars, like every six months, they would have financial planners come in to do a workshop on how to buy your first home and grants and things like that. And their turnover rate went from the six months to three years. They were like, “If we can keep people an average of three years, that's going to do so much to towards our bottom line and our quality.” And that happened There was a turnaround. And they also began to see that people were motivated to go to work because people cared not just about the job that they were doing, but beyond that, with some of their bigger dreams…if you want to go to Florida with your family, how can we make that happen for you? Let's talk about ways that you can save and work towards that with bonuses and things like that. 

And so, as a result, not only did their turnover rate get so much better, they noticed that their cost of supplies went down as well because people were becoming more efficient in how they were cleaning and showing up to work. They took more pride in their work. And so, I do think that there's something about, even in those mundane jobs that seem dead end, that if we can create Dream Managers, if you will…

And so, there's this consulting company that does this now. They go to these jobs that are kind of medium, low wage sorts of jobs and help to bring this out. So to me, I think that's a lovely picture of Dharma and how, yes, we do need to vacuum and do these things. But perhaps there's ways in which we can become a bridge towards other things in our lives that really matter. 

Kristina Kaiser  7:46  

There are so many ideas! First of all, can we just applaud people that have that much vision to ask that many questions and stay on it?! That just was really meaningful! And even as you're talking, I'm realizing that, even as a 16 year-old, I had a choice, right?! I could have chosen retail or the food industry. But I chose food. And all these years later, that seems like a natural choice to me. I love food! I love cooking! 

And even recently, I wrote all these joy lists. And one of my treats that brings me great joy is vacuum lines on the floor. Like, actually, if I just want to feel like I've accomplished something really small and meaningful, probably a quick vacuum of a room would do that for me. So there is some amount of little things we might take for granted but that is uniquely a part of us. So I don't know, laundry, cleaning. Maybe it's all in there somehow.

Christina Roberts  8:50  

I don't know what stirring for you, Chris, as we're saying all this? I like your story. And the story of this book, even though it's fictitious. I think this idea of making community, of helping others in society to thrive, that seems hopeful to me. And going back to the point of Dharma and who gets to do Dharma…

You know, is it just the Lords and Ladies or can we live our dharma as well? And I think the story is hopeful, it does say that we can help people reach their dreams. But I think there is that state of unhappiness and unrest, which is probably helpful to those who are just discovering what their goal is. 

For example, okay, so I'm unhappy being a janitor. Or I'm unhappy doing this. And I think that discontentment could propel you to reaching your goals. So I think it does answer the question of “Do just Lords and Ladies get to get to do their dharma.?” 

But I do still think that there is an equality issue that maybe is utopian. That, you know, how can we equally do the thing that we're that we're doing? And I think we just live in a world that is maybe moving towards equality. But right now, with who spotlighted, I feel that we still have a long way to go. 

And so to answer your question, I would love for everybody to be able to do their Dharma. I would love to be able to do my Dharma. I don't feel like I'm quite there. I think helping other people to do the thing that they uniquely can do in the world is something that I want to be a part of. And so I've loved this conversation just for the fact that we're talking about that: How can contemplation and the contemplative life help us to reach our goals and help other others reach theirs? And that's something that I can get on board with for a good while. I think that's something that I would like to devote my life to. So I appreciate this conversation for that.

Christina Roberts:  11:18  

Yeah, I think, in thinking about the Lords and Ladies, you know, in the movies, often it's the Lords and Ladies, or even just the Ladies that feel discontent, right? It's like: I don't want to just be a Lady sitting around doing these things with servants waiting on me hand and foot. I want to have a purpose and mission. 

And so that's why I wonder if there's something hardwired in us, that what we're meant to do matters. And Kristina, even to your point, maybe it's not even what I'm doing but how I feel or who I'm doing it with that matters, right? So I think that that's part of our Dharma as well. Because…I find joy in listening to somebody one on one. But I also find joy in in baking or something like that, as well. So what I quote, “do with my hands in life” is maybe going to switch. But how I'm present to that, I think, also matters. So I really appreciated what you were saying about that as well.

Kristina Kaiser:  12:09  

Yeah. And I think it's worth it to note these two ways that this can work, right? One is, for instance: I'm working in corporate America. And I want to be a baker, which, I feel like I have a friend like that. She's really good at it. And she lights up when we do these kinds of volunteer/create-an-event type things. 

And then, I think there's another one, which is: I'm in this job in order to pay the bills, but I need another skill. Or I need something else in order to get to where I really want to be. So, there's really two ways that I think we're identifying that this can work. And both are real, as it turns out.

Christina Roberts:  12:46  

Yeah. And I wonder, too, if sometimes in our job, if, again, we do need to pay bills, that's a reality of life. And so, unless you have some large inheritance where you don't have to do that, for 99% of us, that's not the case, right? And so, I have found to sometimes that maybe the whole of my job isn't like, “Oh, my gosh, this is amazing!” Sometimes, if there's even like a parallel track that I'm on, or a side gig that I'm doing or something, somehow, then, what I have to do for the quote, “nine-to-five,” or “to pay the bills,” is okay, right? I know that this is part of the entire mosaic of my vocational life. And this affords me the opportunity to do these other things that do fit in my dharma. I think sometimes that's a part of the reality as well. 

But there seems to be some riches here because I do think it's important to name privilege. But at the same time, I think of Rachael Rogers. She’s a black female entrepreneur. And she's just this wonderful human being that really wants to see, particularly women of color, but you know, anybody, but particularly women, or people that identify that way…Her whole thing is: We should all be millionaires. And it's really encouraging women to lean into business and wealth, and that the way that society is going to change is by getting more money into the hands of women because, typically, statistically, women give back more to communities and families. And so how do we switch generational wealth? So she's amazing! But she grew up very poor, ended up working her way through law school, practiced law for a number of years, and then realized, “This isn't what I want to do.” And then she ended up going a different route into entrepreneurship. And I appreciate it because she has people on her podcast, and in her world where there's such an empowering thing, where we can lean into these things, and there are dreams, and there are desires, and it doesn't matter your race or your gender or where you grew up. Yes, those are factors, and that's part of our story. But there's permission, there’s an opportunity and an invitation to explore these things. So I really appreciate some of what she offers as well. 

Kristina Kaiser:  14:58  

I mean, I certainly have friends in their 50s going back to school because they know that they there's this longing in their heart, that they feel it. And their free time moves towards it. So it's definitely a story that some of us can experience. And I have other friends who are in the middle of job searching and purposely turning down a job, even though it's not convenient, because they know it's not exactly right. But all of these are Acts of Bravery. It takes so much to say in middle life, “I'm going to not just go to school, like I could have done in my younger years. But I'm going to pay the bills. And I'm going to go to school.” That's a huge sacrifice. And I've watched my friend, you know, getting papers done at 11 o'clock at night that are due by midnight. And I'm watching my friend who's looking for work feel the pain of still being unemployed in order to wait for “the thing.” So I think that the Act of Bravery and that fear that goes along with not knowing what's going to come is a big part of this story. And in those two case studies, you know, they’re not even in the same country. So we're not just dealing with American Privilege. This is a universal conversation. Although certainly to Chris's point, trying to navigate the reality of freedoms is different from one place to another, one story to another.

Christina Roberts:  16:36  

Well, thanks again, for a wonderful conversation. And for those that are interested in learning more, we invite you to check out thecontemplativelife.net. We'll have some information there about upcoming Vocational Deep Dive Days that we'll be offering for the rest of the year and would love to see you either in person or virtually join for one of those. On that note, this is the part of our podcast where we talk about what we are into this week.

Kristina Kaiser:  17:00  

So, I think that we have been into Fun Dinner Time Activities. It has been a goal of mine to create more of a playful atmosphere in the house and to eliminate some of the struggles that might come throughout the evening. So I've been brainstorming things that we can do at the table, like creating a story where each person tells a sentence of it…which can take some crazy turns and usually involves a lot of bathroom humor in our house. But also, the kids love play-on-word jokes and such. So that has been the thing that I have been into lately.

Chris Roberts:  17:39  

Nice. This week, I've been into: What are small ways that I can ask questions of people to uncover some of their dreams? So I stand around waiting for my kids to get off school and I'm with other parents, and I'm like: How can I ask small little questions that can open them up for discovering the things that they're into? I'm always looking for ways to do community development or engage with others in my community. And so I’ve really enjoyed these conversations the last two weeks because they’ve triggered this desire in me to want to ask people, “What are your dreams?” And so that's what I've been into.

Christina Roberts:  18:36  

So, I am into beef sticks. Recently our daughter organized a little Fun Run with some of her friends to try to raise money for an orphanage. And one of the families owns like a meat company. And so they brought some beef sticks for the kids after the race, and we had popsicles, and these were really good beef sticks! And I’m always on the hunt for different kinds of meat-to-go options as we're hiking or on the road. And so, first, we had those. And then we were at Costco the other night…and we have certain go-to beef jerky, beef stick type things that we do…but we branched out because there was one on sale that I’ve been curious about. So we said: Let's try this one! And so we've been comparing what type of beef sticks and beef products that we like. And that is what I have enjoyed this week: All things beef related. 

…Aaannnddd my partners are laughing about my “what-I'm-into-this-week,” those of you who cannot see the screen. 

Well, thanks for joining us this week on The Contemplative Life, and we look forward to being with you again next week. Take care!