Ep 22 Vocational Discernment, Part I

Sometimes it’s hard to admit we’re having questions about our work. But on the other hand, maybe these moments are invitations from The Divine that can help us along in our journeys. 

In today’s episode we’ll talk about how the contemplative can help us even in the midst of our vocational questions: What can today teach us? What about today is serving the greater good? We’ll talk about journey and the power of micro-adjustments. And we’ll talk about how seasons of life will likely impact our discernment process.

#Dharma
#Contemplation
#GreaterGood
#ZoneofGenius 

Additional Resources:
Book: Falling Upward by Richard Rohr
Book: The Great Work of Your Life by Stephen Cope
Book: The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks
Poem: Trading for Heaven by Li-Young Lee
NPR Podcast: How I Built This with Guy Raz
Fair Trade Chocolate: Lemon Ginger

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Transcript

Dominic Kaiser

Welcome to the contemplative life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. I'm Christina Roberts. I'm Chris Roberts. I'm Kristina Kaiser, we're glad you joined us.

Christina Roberts

Hello, it's great to be with you. Today we're going to be talking about vocational discernment. And this is an area I run across, often with people who I companion. And I started to think, well, maybe it has to do with stage of life. But it seems like people in their 20s 30s 40s 50s it doesn't necessarily matter chronologically where we land. I think that often we reach a point where we're curious if there's more to our vocation, or how we're contributing and making an impact to the world around us. 

And I find that these conversations tend to be vulnerable on many levels. Sometimes admitting that you aren't super happy at your work can make one feel ungrateful or selfish. I think especially in light of COVID, we should be thankful to have a job, we can feel entitled if we're asking these questions. But personally, I see discontentment or feeling like there might be something more vocationally as beautiful invitations from the divine, to explore our hearts on a deeper level. So today, we want to talk about how contemplative spirituality can help us navigate what to, quote unquote, "do with our lives?" 

Chris Roberts

Yeah, I really enjoy talking about things like this, I find myself sort of in the middle of what you're describing, Christina. And, you know, I've read some helpful books recently.

And I guess some thoughts that I have on it are like, I think when a lot of people are entering into the workforce, you know, the the thing that they're thinking about is maybe what can I do that would provide security for my family? What work can I actually do in the world? What did I go to school for? And I think, this notion of like your calling, or, you know, the thing that that that you specifically can do in the world, might not arise to the surface when one is entering into the workforce. 

And so, you know, I've read books, and I hear a lot of people quite dissatisfied with their life and what they actually are doing in the world. And one book that I read recently by Richard Rohr, which is falling upward, you know, it talks about Eau de Odysseus, his journey, and at one point in his journey, he's a seafarer. Here, he's on the ocean, he's, going to different places, he's at war, and he finds himself in a different place. And in this place, there is no water. And but he's still carrying his oar. And so what had served him in one season of life, ended up serving him in another season of life, just with a different function. 

So you know, his oar became a winnowing plow. And I think that's what it's like, Okay, what, what has my past been? And how can my past be beneficial and useful in the future? Because I don't think anything is a waste. I think, all of life is useful and beneficial. And I think a lot of people's questions are about: Have I wasted my time? Have I wasted my life? And so that's a helpful image for me. The things that we carry into the future, the things that have been a part of our past, actually can be a part of our future. 

And so that's something that I think comes up for me as, as we talk about this idea of vocation: How do I discover my calling? And in regards to the reasons for why I entered into the workforce: What needs to change in me in order to move forward in my life?

Kristina Kaiser

As you guys talk, there's so many ideas just running through my head. It's crazy. Yes, I like this idea of pulling, what is something that I had in my past? And how can I transform it and use it? Even, Christina, as you were talking about: Oh, we can feel ashamed. 

I think another emotion that I’ve felt is embarrassment if suddenly I think: Oh my gosh, I need to I need to make a change here. And then I also worry about how that impacts everybody else. What are they going to think about this change? And what about the investment that someone put in me? So it can bring up a whole lot of emotional turmoil for me. 

I was talking with somebody recently, sharing my story. They said: Oh, wow, what amazing freedom you've had just to make these changes in your life! And I have not ever thought of it as a “free moment.” Now…how beautiful that it comes off as freedom! But in any of those moments, it was with fear and trembling. 

Because, you know, I started on an opera career, I was going to become an opera singer. And people will often say: How did you end up in pastor?! And we'll say: Well, we had this idea that maybe we wanted to do ministry, but we had been counseled to go out and have normal jobs. And normal for me, “normal” was becoming an opera singer. But it didn't quite scratch the itch. 

But like Chris is saying there was something there that was transferable into my work. Now there was something that I could use. And we actually talked about this a lot with our kids, like whatever skill they're honing, right now they can use that in other places. But that very first switch came, as someone was asking, "Where do you get your security meaning and greatness from?" And I had realized: Oh, my gosh! I've just put all my investment into this education! I felt like: If I was spending all this money, then I've got to embody this thing that I'm spending all this money on. And I woke up one day, and I was like: Dom, I can't, I can't do it this way. And we were mid 20s. And 7am was very early to have that conversation. So he was like, "Right now? Can we do this later?" But that was the first moment in my life, in my mid 20s, that I said, I'm not sure if this is quite it. I think I might have to adjust. And now I have to figure out how to adjust.

Christina Roberts

Chris, I appreciate your story and how, at one point there was no more water. And so you're there with the oars, but the waters gone. And I think that that is the reality for many of us that we have the oars, we have the tools, we have the location even. 

But on a personal note, probably one of these vocational shifts came for me, maybe, eight years ago or so where I was sort of okay with my job. But there were parts of it that was like: Something's a little bit off. And there was a book that, Kristina, I know you're familiar with, as well, "The Great Work of Your Life." And there was something about that book and the fresh language of it that really resonated with me. He talks about this idea of Dharma, which I had never heard before, except maybe from a TV show where they talked about Dharma. But he was talking about how sometimes we can be close to our calling, but not quite there. So someone that, maybe to your point, Kristina, they have a desire to be an opera singer, where they light up and find joy. And instead, they’re maybe directing a choir. And so you're close to music, but you're not quite doing the thing that really lights you up, and that can actually be more frustrating to be close to your Dharma, but not doing it, versus something that is totally different than what you're doing. 

And there was something about that, that resonated with me and going into this vocational discernment of: Well, what are the things that, you know, if I really reflect on all the work? Does it mean, I have to completely quit everything, and, you know, start a new path and career? Maybe for some people, that is the reality, and there's a tipping point that you reach. But I think for many of us, sometimes having those micro adjustments of these aspects of my work, I really enjoy these. I don't know there's something about this, that's a little off. Are there ways that I can make micro adjustments to get closer to hitting that mark more, more securely? 

And I think, even to your point, Chris, about freedom, I completely recognize there's a lot of privilege that comes to that with that. And that, that isn't everybody's story necessarily. But at least in my life, inviting God into those moments has been really helpful. And going back earlier, it is vulnerable. It's scary. There's a lot of emotions involved in that of admitting, especially if you're not miserable at your job, if you're sort of neutral at your job, or there's parts that you like, it can feel like, well, gosh, am I throwing all of this away to try to pursue this thing that I don't know if it's really going to manifest in real or not? It's definitely, you know, those key moments where I think contemplative practices, to your point, Kristina, talking to others, processing through seems to be really important.

Chris Roberts

I like the idea that you're talking about, you know, Dharma, or, I've heard zones of genius, or other ideas where people are doing the things that they're uniquely gifted to do in the world. And it sounds great. 

But one person does that person do 90% of what they uniquely can do and reach they’re Dharma or they’re zone of genius? And that makes me think, "Man, is my zone of genius laundry?" You know? 

What would my life look like if I was just doing 90% of the things that I enjoyed, that were life giving to me? And I know everyone's story is different. And it's a bit humorous that, you know, maybe I could open a laundry service and that could then be my zone of genius. I doubt it. But I think there's also something to learn in doing the laundry, that that being contemplative can teach you, right? I think some people get to these places of zones of genius. And their journey is their journey. But all I think all of our journey is asking:  Okay, what am I learning in the midst of the things that I'm doing? 

And so for me, it's like, you know: How could laundry be more an act of love? You know, my daughter has put something that she wore once for 10 minutes in the laundry, and I'm having to wash it again. It’s a point of frustration, but what can I learn? And how can I be loving? And how could I turn the things that I'm doing into a contemplative moment where I'm actually thinking through the things that I'm doing? And how can this be a loving act? Or, you know, how could this be serving the greater good of my family? And I mean, that's a funny story. But I think there's something to learning in the spot that you're in or growing in. Now, obviously, I don't do laundry 90% of the time. I do that just a little bit of the time. But just as an example, what are we learning in life and the things that we are doing? And what is our attitude towards the things that we're doing?

Kristina Kaiser

Yes, that comes up a lot for me when doing homework with the children. And I think that book, "The Great Work of Your Life," that was, in some ways, hugely relieving for me, in terms of this being a lifelong process, because there was, for instance, this question of: What is your "right-sized dharma?" And I recognize that Dharma means many things, as I've sort of learned over time. Dharma has more than one definition, but I had gone to school for Opera in America. Probably the goal there is to get a job at The Met, right? Or you'll go on and get your doctorate. But if you get your doctorate, then you don't really perform. You teach at a college. So there's this whole question of: What is one going to do? And I had walked into my adult life with stars in my eyes. It was all supposed to be really big. And the question of how to make my life big, was this, more than a decade long pursuit until I just got so tired of trying to make it big all the time. And I had to start enjoying the days the way that they are, which is sort of maybe, Chris, what you're talking about a little bit? How can I enjoy this day exactly where I am, even with dreams that are yet to come? 

And this is…I can’t act like I’ve solved it. There are still days where I want something more and bigger. But “right-sized Dharma” says: Dharma for this day, what is the thing for this day? 

The other thing that was so encouraging to me was this notion of: Sometimes you’re in the middle of your Dharma, and you haven't named it. So there's this notion of maybe you weren't even aware that you just actually really love what you're doing. And it felt kind of nothing, maybe like laundry, it feels kind of nothing. But it turns out, you're really good at it. And nobody could really do it like you. And so it IS your thing. And that's amazing. And I think even, Christina, to some of the questions, I remember one day, we were having a conversation. (And I was like, gosh, I should have known better.) I remember saying to you: Well, who would enjoy…whatever the administrative task was?  And you immediately knew someone that would enjoy that task. And I thought: Of course, someone enjoys that! And I don't know why I even said tha! But I don't enjoy it. And so there’s this reality of: We all make the world go round in different ways.

Christina Roberts

Yeah. And I think as we talk about vocational discernment, I think it's important to name that sometimes there's this pressure that we have to find the one thing that is our calling, and that’s just feels really stressful. As opposed to: I think, as we evolve as human beings, sometimes our interests evolve. Or our capabilities or capacity evolves. And so I think it's a normal, natural part of life sometimes to, again, have these curious moments, these questions and invitations and stirrings from the Divine to maybe explore something new are different. And with that, I think there's always choice. We can stay where we are. But again, there's different values. What’s more important right now sometimes is the security and the paycheck. Because there's a lot going on in life right now. And this is what I need. And so within that, I'm gonna lean into this, this portion of my calling right now, which is stability. 

And then other times, I think we do have those invitations, where, can you feel quote, "stable enough?" Like, what's sort of the minimum that you need to survive? And could there be opportunity for some exploration, that maybe is a little bit riskier, and depending on, again, your life stage or situation, that's going to vary from person to person. But I think there's something, I don't know, honest, authentic, about being able to name some of that stuff and ask those questions. 

And to move more towards, Kristina, even your point of naming that sometimes we are in our Dharma and it when we when we do that, and make those small adjustments or the large tipping points, sometimes it is: I'm quitting this; I'm going back to school for X, Y, or Z; or I'm going to do this new job. Usually, that doesn't happen in one day, though, right? It evolves. And so yeah, I think again, just the importance of allowing the space to be able to name those things. 

And the Quakers will call it like a "Holy Indifference," where, really, we just want what God wants. And so we're coming to it not with an indifference of "I don't care apathy," but with a really, whatever God's will is, I want to be open with that indifference, kind of a heart and space.

Chris Roberts

Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of times what happens is it just shifts. So like people may have received a calling, you know, early on in their life, and they're doing that. But something that, you know, Father Greg Boyle said that I really appreciated, he was asked, "Why did he become a Jesuit?" And he said, "For the hilarity and the prophetic-ness." And then he said, "You know, I entered the Jesuit world, because of those reasons. But often in life, the reasons why you became a part of something, will not be the reasons that sustain you. So you have to find new reasons." And so I, you know, I just find that encouraging, for those that may be in their job. And they felt a calling towards it, like maybe the reasons why they entered into that might be drifting, and they have to find new reasons to continue on doing that. So that's another thing that I think that comes up for me.

Kristina Kaiser

Yeah, and even as you were talking a little bit about the multiple ways that this can work out. Recently, I attended a workshop about discernment. And there were these 12 Ignation steps, which I haven't fully gotten through yet, just to say. I've been really working slowly, just like one little question, one little portion of a question, in each day type thing, which is fine. Because there are moments that are meant to call you back to things like listening for the Holy Spirit to speak, or listening for God to speak, or however that goes for you. But I have recognized in this, the actual job that I'm doing, for me, is not necessarily as important as how I feel, when I'm doing the job, which may well be personality based. I don't know. But that was a really interesting thing for me to notice that I'm not necessarily unhappy with my work. But I do want to feel like I'm contributing. And like that's a valuable contribution for somebody that, that's appreciated in some way. So that's a subtle shift really.

Christina Roberts

Yeah. So for those that are listening, we periodically have what we call Vocational Deep Dive Days. And I did one a few months ago online that went really well. And just this week, I had some feedback from people about how that was sort of a catalyst to get them thinking, which was just kind of fun to watch, you know, several months later, to see where they're at in the journey. 

We’re going to do another one in the summer. So if you're listening to this in real time, we would love to invite you to. We're going to have both an in-person Vocational Deep Dive Day as well as a Virtual option. So if that's interesting to you, if you feel like "Gosh, yeah, there's just some questions stirring around in me, and it would be helpful to talk to another person about that and maybe have some thoughtful questions and ways to kind of navigate that," we invite you to email us at info@thecontemplativelife.net and we can get you some more information about that.

…So thanks for the conversation. And we're gonna transition now into the part of our podcast where we talk about what we're into this week.

Kristina Kaiser

I am totally into Equal Exchange, Lemon, Ginger Chocolate. It has been a long time since we had it and they recently had, like, an anniversary sale. So we ordered like 12 bars which should take us a good long while, like, I promise we won't eat it all in a second, but... who would think?! It's like lemon, ginger and maybe cracked pepper. And it's this just giant, wonderful explosion of happiness in the mouth. So Lemon Ginger Chocolate from Equal Exchange.

Chris Roberts

Well, I have been into poet named Li-Young Lee. And there's a specific point that is really been speaking to me it actually a lot to do with what we've been talking, talking about today. And the name of the poem is "Trading for Heaven." And I just find it speaks really well to my life to what we've been talking about today. So I'd like to read a couple of lines of it for you: "I saw you holding open the door. Now I'm filling pages with things I can't tell anyone. Now I'm more alone than I've ever been. I traded every beyond, every Sunday, for heaven in my lifetime. Now, I'm dying in my life. Now, I'm alive inside my death. Do you see the space between our bodies? Barely a hand. Hardly a breath." I really have appreciated some of his poetry. And I've actually started writing some poetry of my own. I feel a lot like it's a third graders attempt at poetry, but I'm still gonna give it my all. So I'm into Li-Young Lee and his poetry.

Christina Roberts

So I am into the podcast "How I Built This" with Guy Raz. It's an NPR podcast. And I've listened to this for a few years. But it's just stories of different entrepreneurs and their journeys and their feelings and their, you know, pivots and all of the things. And it's just so inspiring. And so I look forward to every week. And, they have, during the podcast, they've been doing a Resilience Edition of how people have pivoted during the pandemic. And so I thoroughly have been enjoying "How I Built This." NPR with Guy Raz. 

Well, thanks for joining us today. As always, we invite you to check out thecontemplativelife.net for more resources. And also, if you have been enjoying the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you would take a moment to rate or review us on iTunes. There's something with the algorithms where as people do that, it helps others to find us. So if you've been enjoying it, that would be a great way to give back. On that note. It was great spending some time with you wherever you listen and look forward to seeing you again next week. Take care!