Ep 20 AA Meets Contemplative Spirituality

Today we are talking with Ken, Spiritual Companion and member of numerous contemplative communities. 

Ken talks to us in this episode about practices that have been meaningful to him, why being powerless turns out to be a good thing, and what some of his favorite connections are between 12-step programs and the contemplative.  Join us as we listen together.

#SpiritualCompanioning
#SpirtitualDirection
#Recovery
#CenteringPrayer

Additional Resources:
Book: Happiness and the Human Spirit by Rabbi Abraham Twerski

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

contemplative, contemplative spirituality, church, recovery, AA,12-step, thomas keating, richard rohr

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. 

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.  

Chris Roberts  00:26

Hello, it is great to be with you today. I'm super excited about our episode today. We have a guest that I am really excited about the conversation that we're going to have. Today we have Ken, and we'll just use his first name. Ken is going to be on our podcast today. And I first met Ken many years ago. I engaged in a spiritual direction relationship with him. We have come in and out of each other's lives over the past seven to eight years. And we're just super excited to hear about his journey, hear the things that he's been doing in the world, how he's received, how he's engaged with AA, how he's engaged with contemplative spirituality...Welcome, Ken, it's so good to be with you. And we would love for you to tell us a bit about your journey into contemplative spirituality. So welcome. 

Ken  01:17

Thank you, it's good to be talking with you. I was thinking about a journey into contemplative spirituality, and what came to mind is, about 15 years ago or so when I was getting training to become a spiritual companion/spiritual director, one of the instructors was someone who had known me in college. And he came up to me during the break and with this mix of excitement, enthusiasm, and, I think, surprise, he said, "Are you contemplative?!" 

The surprise, I suppose, is because anybody who had known me in college wouldn't have used that word anywhere near me. Not wanting to let him know that I didn't know exactly what he was asking, I sort of mumbled back and said, "Well, I think I'm learning to be." And that question, "Are you a contemplative?" has been with me, actually, ever since then, in various ways, because I've been involved with what are often identified as contemplative practices for a long time. I mean, I've been receiving spiritual direction that has a directee for over 35 years, and benefited greatly from it. I've had a daily practice of Centering Prayer for well over a dozen years, was a part of a Christian community, an ecumenical community, that had daily prayer practices with each other. And I've also benefited from knowledge of and learning about the enneagram. So all of these things are commonly identified as contemplative. 

But as I entered into those, I didn't think of them in those terms. I thought these are just Christian practices that one does to try to improve your life. So when you asked me if I'd be willing to talk to you about this podcast, I asked Christina, I said, "Well, the first thing I'm going to ask you is, 'What do you mean by contemplative?'" She oh so helpfully said, "You can call it, name it, identify it any way you want to." 

What I have, I sort of thought about this over time and have kind of a working definition of what contemporary what it means to engage in contemplative spirituality. And the best I could come up with is: Any experience that my ego can't take credit for. It causes me to ask on a routine basis: What is the motivation behind what I'm doing? Am I acting out of a desire to fulfill those, what are now becoming recognized human needs for security and safety, for affirmation, approval, for power and control, identified by Thomas Keating, among others...is that the real drive behind? And all of those things are always behind everything I do, I'm coming to realize. Are those the primary motivators or not? I can say more about that if you want, but I think Richard Rohr and Thomas Keating, in particular, have identified those ego needs as primary drivers of all of us in some ways, unless and until we allow some experience to begin to transform us so that they aren't they are driving the bus.

Christina Roberts  04:35

Ken, I would love to hear more about that. Because I think for the three of us, people that we are companioning and walking alongside of are mostly in the first half of life, and you are someone in the second half of life. And so, I would love to hear some perspective on that and how relating to the ego and contemplative spirituality has morphed and evolved for you since you just recounted: this has been decades, that this has been a journey for you. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about maybe even some of those nuances.

Ken  05:04

Well, I don't think I can really talk about this without talking about my experience in recovery and what 12 step programs have meant to me. Because the first of the 12 steps is to admit we're powerless. To use Richard Rohr's words, as he talks about the transformative experience, or the move into the second half of life, he says: It's the imperial ego that has to go and only powerlessness can do the job correctly. 

And Thomas Keating also often talks about powerlessness, which is where no human being wants to go, really. And people come into recovery, most of us, not because we want to be there. But because we feel like we just have to be. We need something beyond ourselves. 

You're probably familiar with the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is the founding document for of Alcoholics Anonymous that came out in the 30s. It is used at virtually every AA meeting worldwide. At the beginning, there's a Chapter Five, "How It Works," it's called, and it's recited or read at the beginning of most a meetings. And it begins with these words, it says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path," and then identifies those people. Usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. And the whole program, then, revolves around this: How to become more and more honest. 

As Rohr talks about, when he talks about the first half of life, and and Keating, too, he talks about the human condition, that so much of what keeps us from really knowing ourselves is what's in our subconscious. And: What can we do to bring things to consciousness so that then we can respond to it and make choices based on what's really going on underneath. 

And that's what I have found in recovery over time is (and it's often referred to as the need for rigorous honesty) starting with what's referred to as "cash register honesty," you don't steal. And some of us need to start there. 

And then you move further into recognizing that there's always deeper with God and there's always something more to be revealed, which is another way of saying that none of us really is honest. We never can't be because there's always something that we have yet to learn, which is a wonderful place to be. And we're powerless over that as well. 

So that's the connection for me between...And this isn't probably the time to talk specifically about each of the 12 steps, but, for me, they're they're always pointing towards: Okay, what's really going on here? Which, I think, is not a bad way to define contemplative spirituality either. 

Kristina Kaiser  08:33

So sometimes, friends of mine, if we check in together throughout the day, and occasionally someone sets an intention, like: Today, I'm going to try not to swear under my breath at work or something. And then an hour and a half later, it's like: Just so you know, I've already failed. So how does that work in your own experience? Like: I'm setting an intention, I'm moving into my day, intending to be contemplative. I'm going to have to reset multiple times today. How do you experience that?

Ken  09:06

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is to realize that we're all going to fail every day. And it's what we do and how we react to it that's more important than maintaining with willpower, a certain level of behavior. David Banner likes to say that God desires our consent, not our willpower. Making a decision of what I'm going to do today and then gritting my teeth through it, I don't think is contemplative. And I don't think it's being faithful to how God wants us to live. 

The practice of Centering Prayer is so important in this because, to me, the practice of centering prayer is a practice of letting go, of releasing, of recognizing that you're doing something, and then releasing it. To recognize that, first of all to ask, I would ask myself: Why am I making this intention? Who am I trying to impress? Or what is it I'm trying to do? And again, like I said earlier, to question: What is the real motive behind this? And then, if I am satisfied that I'm doing it out of, I won't call pure motives, but out of, at least, as clear a motive as I can...and then I fail, how can I release that as quickly as possible so I can return to a state of emotional sobriety, is what we would call it in recovery circles.

Chris Roberts  10:42

Yeah, I'm struck by this notion that you mentioned earlier that has to do with control. I think a lot of life is about controlling our circumstances. And one of my favorite Richard Rohr sayings is: You're not in control of your life. Your life is being done to you. Going back to what you were just talking about: our motives. Do you think that our failings are part of helping us to align with our motives? And do they propel us into a future that is being honest with our motives? How do you look at failings? 

Ken  11:22

Well, it's not just my way of thinking, but I always like to turn to one of my favorite teachers, Thomas Keating because he says: Our failings are our greatest gift. He says: Powerlessness, he talks about this very thing, of powerlessness, our ability to maintain control, as you say, over the things. He says: Powerlessness is our greatest treasure. Don't try to get rid of it. Because honestly, everything in us wants to get rid of it. To be in too big a hurry to get over our difficulties of a mistake, is a mistake. Because you don't know how valuable they are from God's perspective. What we call mistakes, or failings, are really what teach us over time. 

There's a Rabbi Abraham Twerski who wrote a book called "Happiness and the Human Spirit." And in there, he says: Can anyone tell me anything they've ever learned from a pleasurable experience? And I think that's right, without sounding very Pollyannish, because, obviously, I don't like things that are not pleasurable either. And don't try to look for them because you don't need to look for them. There's plenty of troubles yet to come.

Christina Roberts  12:46

You kind of touched on your world of recovery and where the contemplative spirituality and recovery meet...Obviously, you've taken a broader stroke into that and really gone deep into some of these contemplative practices that, I'm assuming, were kind of introduced to you as you were swimming in the world of AA and learning some of the steps. And if I'm hearing you, those steps maybe offer invitation, maybe some language, and then from there opportunities to maybe deep dive. And, it seems like, maybe do some people tend to gravitate towards...I know you have mentioned, each of the steps kind of has their own...tradition, was it? So maybe you could unpack that a little bit for us as well.

Ken  13:27

Well, there's 12 steps and 12 traditions, and they don't necessarily align with each other, just happens to be 12 of each. I would not say that tradition, or that steps each have their own tradition. What has grown up around the 12 steps is what are known as AA Slogans, some of which are quite trite. And some of those are very well known and some are very useful. You've probably seen bumper stickers that say: Easy does it. Or: one day at a time. Those are all AA Slogans. Actually, it's interesting, if you want to Google AA Slogans, you will find pages that have hundreds of them, which are quite interesting, and sometimes quite annoying. So I would say those are traditions that have grown up around each of the steps. 

Just to take "one day at a time" as an example, that speaks in contemplative terms. If we believe that part of a contemplative life is being in the here and now as much as possible, staying in the present and not worrying about what has gone before or what is yet to come...Or at least when we recognize when we're worrying about those things, that we have a way of moving through them so that they don't overwhelm us. "One day at a time" is a good shorthand way of saying, "I can do this." 

I think people, if they hear that and associate that line with AA or other 12-step programs, they think of it in terms of: Oh, I can get by one day at a time without taking a drink or without using. And I'll just hang on for this 24 hours. And then, when the next one comes, I'll hang on again, if I can. 

Ken  15:16

That's true for many people, especially early on in the program. That's really what it is. It is kind of a white knuckle, grit your teeth, let's get through this day kind of thing. 

But over time, it develops this deeper dimension of: No, I'm going to try to stay in the present. I'm going to do practices like meditation, centering prayer, silent retreats, what it takes to stay in the moment, mindfulness. That's just an example of how being in a program where you're constantly being asked to become more and more honest about what's going on inside of you, how it can lead you that way. 

The other thing I would say about 12-step programs, too, is, it's a very communal experience. I mean, one of the things they encourage again and again, is to spend time in meetings together. So you hear other people telling their stories, some of which will resonate deeply, and others may seem quite different. But over time, you begin to realize that the similarities are deep between all humans, whether they're in recovery or not.

Christina Roberts  16:15

Yeah, I find myself, as a pastor, drawn to this idea of learning from the recovery world. And I think that there's such authenticity and transparency and openness. And I was recently listening to someone who, they have a monastic community in New York, and, in addition to their members seeking out spiritual companionship/spiritual direction, they also every year go through a sort of a 12-step process together. And I'm just really intrigued by the idea in the church world as well. Pastoring, what does that mean to learn from these treasures? I mean, just such treasures that you're offering today, Ken, and the wisdom from your experience and the many others before you as well.

Ken  16:58

Yeah, thanks. You know, for a while, my schedule worked in a way that I often went to a meeting early on Sunday morning that I go to church. And I will not do church bashing, because I'm here. Church has been very much a part of my life from the beginning. I'm a preacher's kid, so I feel for all your kids. So I have a great debt of gratitude towards the Christian church, even though I think it has a lot to learn from places outside the Christian church. And that's part of why you're doing this podcast, no doubt.

But I think it often is striking to me, the difference between an AA meeting where there's frequently, not always, but with some regularity, genuine tears of despair ,of joy of every human feeling comes out. People are willing to share very freely, for the most part. But they're also allowed not to. And nobody even thinks about: What are you wearing? Or: What did you do last night? Or any of that kind of stuff. And church has such a different feel to it often, where there's so many regimens that tend to be over the decades and some expectations that go along with being in church that some of them, you know, were probably developed for very good reason. And I don't want to suggest that there aren't expectations that go along with a program like AA or NA, or any of the other 12-step programs, because there certainly are. That's what those 12 traditions are all about. But there is, like I said, the program is interested in interior honesty, more than is about external behavior.

Chris Roberts  18:55

I love what you brought up there, Ken. If you're thinking about the church in the future and dreaming about what the church could be, what would you incorporate from, say, an AA meeting into a church setting that you think would be very transformational for church and the future of church? What are some hopes and dreams that you would have? If you could change anything about church, what would it be?

Ken  19:22

Oh, man, my first reaction is: I'm so glad that this is your problem and not mine. Being in the second half of life, as you say, I recognize with growing freedom that I don't have to try to figure this out. But I think maybe as I've already suggested, I don't know that I have any advice to give, other than to say the changes are already happening. The expectation that I grew up with that: Every Sunday morning you were in church, period. It changed radically, for good or for bad. Some people think that's a horrible cultural shift. But it's pretty dramatic, and COVID has just completely obliterated the expectations that we had. 

And I guess I have come to believe that anytime we question our expectations and hold them more loosely, the better. And whether it's in church or anywhere, for us personally as well. That's one of the things about, part of the training of Centering Prayer, or why Pentering prayer is a training. It's noticing your expectations. I expect to be quiet, and then I'm not. And so how do I loosen that? How do I let go of that expectation without trying to just try harder to meet the expectations? 

So what are our expectations about church? I guess that's the thing I would want to encourage everybody to be questioning is, I mean, I guess this sounds like going back to the 60s, which you guys wouldn't remember. But it's like: Question everything. To do so with a loving spirit, and not with an antagonism built in towards anything? I don't think that answers your question. But like I said, it's not my problem. I'm just along for the ride for whatever time I have left. 

Kristina Kaiser  21:23

But I do love what you're saying around: It's happening. The tide is turning! And we can see it, we can feel it in various ways. I'm also really thankful that you brought up the notion of companionship and others joining in and the contemplative experience. I think of joy unspeakable. Is it Barbara Holmes?  She just spoke at a conference that I was at and was talking more about Crisis Contemplation, but it happened in the midst of community where people cry out and something is released. And that's a really important thing...Because I don't think people necessarily think of the contemplative stuff all the time in the sense of community. So I'm definitely thankful that you're bringing that up as well.

Ken  22:05

Yeah, I mean, we not only learn from each other, and can be taught practices, and...Even something like Pentering prayer...You know, my own experience of that was trying it on my own when I had been encouraged to do so by a spiritual director on retreat. It was not a happy experience. And the reason, as I look back on it now, was because I didn't really understand what it was about. I thought it was about trying to feel peaceful or trying to make my mind blank or something like that. And it's not. It's about noticing when your mind is not blank and you're engaged with your thought, and then release it. 

So I like what someone has suggested, it's an aerobic workout for your "letting go" muscles. I didn't know that. I had just the opposite. When I was on my own, I was trying harder. I was tightening all my muscles to try harder, which is just the opposite of what it really needed. 

That's just one example of how we can learn practices from each other. But also, just to hear somebody's experience and to realize: Oh, yeah, I've had that. Or to say: You know, I don't think I have had that. But we're still in the same place. benefiting from the same understandings. We can love each other, or, at least, or let's be honest, community is about learning to tolerate people you don't like very much. And more than tolerate, the word "love" is so misused and overused. But I think that is the message that God is bringing us, I think, is: How do we have, not a feeling towards each other, but a recognition of our kinship?

Chris Roberts  24:03

Thank you so much, Ken, for the words that you've offered us today, the story that you've told, and the practices that have helped your life. And I know that we are going to benefit personally from it. And hopefully everyone who's listening to this podcast will reflect on it. So thank you so much for joining us.

For more resources, we invite you to check out thecontemplativelife.net.

Well, this is the part of our podcast where we talk about what we're your into. Guys, what are we into?

Kristina Kaiser  24:46

Well, it's hard to say if I'm actually into it, or if it's just preoccupying my life, but in any case, landscaping is the name of the game. It's springtime. We are getting everything cleaned out, and we had just got the house last summer, so this is kind of our first opportunity to say: What should be happening here? So landscaping is all the rage in the Kaiser household.

Christina Roberts  25:09

Very fun. I love that. Well, I am into Trader Joe's. So I really like that store. And probably about once a month, Chris and I will go on...we have breakfast dates. And so sometimes we will do our breakfast dates near Trader Joe's. And we'll each have a card that we just chock full both carts, which means that we linger at the cash register, because there's a lot of things to check out. And we tend to strike up conversations with the cashiers month to month. And so we were there this week and had a lovely conversation with the checker. And then the bagger was just sharing about these, like, fireside apples and, probably, for about five minutes, talking about these amazing apples and his dream to maybe have an orchard one day. And it was just this lovely conversation. So at the end, the cashier, I guess they have like a bucket where they can hand out flowers or something. I'm not sure if that's a new thing at Trader Joe's, but she gave us this gorgeous bouquet of flowers, just put it in our carton was like, "Have a nice day," as a little gift from her. And so they're in our dining room. And they're just lovely. And I'm just delighted in Trader Joe's. So that is what I have into this week.

Chris Roberts  26:12

Yes, that was a lovely experience. I'm not into anything that I really want to be into. But I am into video and picture storage. It is Mother's Day approaching quickly. And one of the things that my better half likes to do around Mother's Day is reminisce on the year and see photos of her children smiling and the activities that have happened. And I am horrible at organization and putting those things into process. But the question has come up: Do we have videos/documentation? Do we have pictures of all the years of our children's lives? Or did we lose them to cyberspace? And so I have been going through some of our USB files and some of our DVDs and some of our CDs. And come to find out, we do have all of those pictures and videos documented. And so for better or worse, I have been into storage of video and picture files. And a lot of my attention has gone to that and a lot of my worries have been nullified. And I am happy, and my wife is happy, and we are both in a happy space together because of the capability of being able to put all these things in a place that you can save them for later. And now I have them all in one place. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. 

Thank you so much for joining us. It was so good to be with you today. We look forward to being with you again soon. Have a great week.