Ep 19 Spiritual Independence

Today we’re talking about Spiritual Independence. If we know this term, we may well identify by any number of names: Spiritual but not Religious, Spiritually Eclectic, Spiritually Fluid, Disaffiliated, Nones…But whatever we call ourselves and however we found ourselves here, many of us are finding our way into the Contemplative. 

In this episode, we explore a number of questions: Can we establish an openness and hospitality towards one another? Can we engage the universal sorts of wisdoms that span across faith traditions? Where and how can we find safe spaces to gather and to dialogue?

Probably the only thing we know for sure is that there are more questions than answers. But might we be able to come together, celebrating the vastness of the Divine, engaging our similarities and being hospitable towards our differences. 

#SpiritualCompanioning
#SpirtitualDirection
#PerennialWisdom 

Additional Resources:
Book: The Joy Diet by Martha Beck
TV Series: Grantchester on PBS
Author, Speaker & Life Coach: Martha Beck

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

faith, spiritual conversations, tradition, spirituality, faith traditions, perennial wisdom, contemplative, divine, deconstructing

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.

I'm Chris Roberts.

I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.

Christina Roberts  00:25

Hello, it's great to be with you. Today we are going to be talking about spiritual independence. And right off the bat, I want to say that this term may or may not describe the people that we're talking about, because, I think that it's hard to maybe land on one particular term. Some people might identify as spiritual but not religious, spiritual eclectic, spiritually fluid, deconstructing faith, disaffiliated, nones, n-o n-e-s, not Catholic people who were habits. Anyway, whatever you want to call that, this is a growing demographic. And I would say that in the past couple of years, as I've been companioning with people, I'm finding more and more people who identify with this category of spiritual independence are finding their way into the contemplative. And it is fascinating to learn from and to hear their stories. 

And I think in my own life, I've had a lot of shifts as far as what it means to, I don't know, identify in this way and relate as such, because I think traditionally, and I think that this is the case, some people may consider themselves in this category due to religious trauma or bad experiences with church. And that is a real thing that is helpful to have some safe spaces to process that. I think other people just simply grow out of whatever spiritual practices they were engaging with and are looking for something else. Some people, I think, grow up in a mixed-faith household. And so if you were born into a household with a Hindu mom and a Catholic dad, then, automatically you are maybe in this particular demographic. 

So today, we would like to take some time to talk about this demographic, because I think, especially for the people that I'm meeting with, sometimes one wonders: Am I alone? Is anybody else out there asking the same sorts of questions? And so we went to say: Yes! You are not alone! Many people are, but I think it's maybe hard to find those landing spots. So spiritual independence.

Chris Roberts  02:28

I think, demographically speaking, we're just in a hotbed of people who identify as spiritually independent. I think, for whatever reasons people find themselves landing in this demographic, I think there are a lot lots of reasons. You mentioned spiritual trauma, a spirituality that works for you, or doesn't work for you. And, I think a lot of people grow up in certain locations in the United States, such as myself, which is the Bible Belt, and you then travel the world. And you find how everybody doesn't believe the same thing or the same way that you do. And if you want to have positive interactions with people that are from different cultures are different faith traditions, you sort of have to have an openness to faith, openness to others, that I think a lot of our faith traditions, our Christian faith traditions, have not been open to, over the past century. There's this closed-off-ness to, and this other-ness to those that are from different cultures, or different faith traditions. 

And I think, being in a place where cultural diversity, and an openness to others has really helped open my eyes to this demographic, and I want to engage with them more. And one thing that I found that's really helpful is just this idea of discussing perennial wisdom, this idea that all faith traditions have a wisdom that's universal, whether it's from the Jewish faith tradition or the Muslim faith tradition...I think it just applies across the board. And I love having those types of discussions with others, what we might call in religious traditions i'nterfaith dialogue." And I think to have interfaith dialogue, you have to have an openness and a hospitality to others that maybe is uncomfortable until you sort of grow into this love of others, probably transcends what hard-line religious faith has taught us over the years.

Kristina Kaiser  05:05

I very much love that we're talking about all of this. Even as I'm listening to both of you, I realize: Yes, this has permeated so much of my adult life. This trend has been going for a long time. And so the notion of: Where does it come from? And, Christina, I really appreciate you pointing out: You might enter into this dialogue and the questions that you have and the journey that you're having for so many different reasons. I find that super helpful. And Chris, I too, grew up in an area that was predominantly churched in a very specific way. So I remember coming back for a visit to visit my family and being in a restaurant and overhearing people talk about this Christian radio...this very famous Christian radio thing. And I thought, "Oh my gosh! I haven't overheard a conversation about Jesus in so long!" But I can remember that being the goal! The goal would be that somebody would interact with you about Jesus, even if it was just at the checkout line. 

But through my adult life, this notion of having questions and "am I safe" to have those questions? "Am I allowed to ask those questions" has been a really predominant theme amongst so many people. And so for years, I feel like, for one, the more that I've heard people ask those questions. I was like, "Hey, that is a good question! I want to ask that question, too." And also, I want to create safe places for people to ask questions. So all of that has been there. 

And it does feel like a big journey that's been very much helped by authors and theologians who are now looking at all these faith traditions, as you guys are saying, and say, "Look at this commonality and look at that commonality." and this perennial wisdom stuf,f where I feel like, as a kid, that was not my experience. It was, "Look at this difference. And this difference is making all the difference. And this is why we're right." So I very much appreciate this move towards a sense of oneness and value of all people and value of ways in which we are the same.

Christina Roberts  07:10

Yeah, and I think sometimes when we're exploring this topic, I think there's some natural, maybe, bracing points or uncomfortable spaces that rise up in us. And so, I was listening to some people who were both identified as this and those that were maybe companioning that didn't necessarily identify, and what are some things that come up? And even someone who identifies as a spiritual independent said, "You know, I sometimes wonder, am I flaky? I don't want to be known as someone that just picks and chooses and maybe has a shallow spirituality. I really am serious about spirituality. I crave spiritual conversations, and not just the questions, but the practices and the community and growth." 

And so, I think sometimes there are some things that maybe feel a little bit threatening to us or: Am I going to go too far in this and lose some of the things that I hold dear and true? I think there's some genuine questions that come up. And those are real. And those are important to take time to explore and to go at the pace that seems reasonable and comfortable for those that are both companioning or maybe identify in this particular category.

Chris Roberts  08:16

Yeah, I think something that I give a lot of thought to is: How do you have dialogue with people who are spiritually independent/spiritually curious> All the ways that I've connected with people, up until about three years ago, has has been through church. My church experience...you go to this building, you have these spiritual conversations, whether you agree or disagree on what your theology is, it's been the meeting place for those types of conversations. 

And over the past three years, I've been having more of these conversations in bars, and in gas stations, and I think I've learned to have short snippet conversations about spirituality rather than these long, drawn-out conversations. But, there's constructs that we have for these types of conversations. And it's really hard, I think, for me to have conversations in church, because some of the reasons why people who are spiritually independent that don't come to churches...church just seems to be intellectually speaking down to anyone who would have a different sort of view of life. 

And so I found that spiritual direction/spiritual companioning is a much better place, a safer place, a better construct for having these types of conversations with people. And I really look forward to more of that type of dialogue, because I think people that are setting out on spiritual journeys to find the deeper meanings in life, I think God wants to meet them. And as sort of a guide to them finding the right connections, the right people, to have these conversations on their journey. I have a lot of faith in whatever you want to call the divine, that He leads people into these conversations. And He leads people to these connections that are going to be super beneficial to them having a deeper, more fulfilled life through these types of conversations.

Christina Roberts  10:33

Yeah, and I remember, a couple of years ago, I was attending a retreat, and it was a Buddhist practitioner, a Benedictine nun, and a Christian theologian author. And their premise was what I, as a Buddhist, as a Catholic, as a Christian theologian, you know, I'm not trying to necessarily sway you away from your faith tradition, but the idea was: As I interact with Jesus, I become a stronger Buddhist. Or as I interact with your Buddhist tradition, it actually makes me go deeper into my root and faith tradition. 

And I was really skeptical of that, at first, I'm like: Really?! I don't know about that. And so anyway, I went to this retreat, and it was really fascinating, because whoever was presenting at the moment, the others would then interpret, through their lens, what that person was saying, from their faith tradition. And so again, that point of the perennial wisdom, it was really fascinating to kind of hear the different nuances and contextualization of that. 

And then we had this meditation time together. And it was actually, at that point, it was the Buddhist practitioner who was doing that. And he was very sweet to acknowledge all of the different, you know, there was largely Christian/Catholic population in the room. And so when he was doing his things, he said, "You know, I would talk about a benevolent benefactor or guide, you can choose Jesus since many of you would want to be looking at Jesus for this different space." So again, just very generous in his leading of this time. But it was profound! I mean, it was so profound. And it was, I think, profound, because it was different language...It was the same idea, right? It was connecting to the Divine, to God. But the language he used was so fresh, that maybe it just kind of caught me off guard in a different way. And I sat in that, that beautiful space, having one of the most profound spiritual moments that I've had in probably a decade, if I'm honest, it was amazing. And it came from this Buddhist practitioner that was leading the session. 

Now, at the end of it, I had zero desire to become a Buddhist, I appreciated their faith more, but thought, "Gosh, it's a lot of work to be a Buddhist! I'm not used to those muscles. I'm used to having Jesus in my realm moreso than a lot of the inner work that that Buddhism promotes." But it was so rich. And so, even in my own life, I, again, that pace and what it means to explore, and you explore as far as you're comfortable, and that's great! You don't have to go further or not, depending on where you're at. So that's been something personally, that I've been experiencing as well.

Kristina Kaiser  12:59

I love it. And I love that there are retreats available so you can get your one-on-one spiritual direction, or you can get this group experience. Because both feel reasonable and important to me. And even just as I hear you talking about your experience in this meditation, I think, "That's kind of the beauty of it." I think if I had stayed in this one tradition, like for instance, this weekend, I'm going to be talking about this notion of "flowing like water." And I can get a little bit of that from the Bible, but I can get a really big chunk of it, like I can kind of fill it out and understand it more, when I use the Tao spirituality. So I'm spending a lot of time there this week to kind of flesh out more about water and just kind of bring that in. 

And it's not that it doesn't exist in the Bible. But as we kind of pull these together, sometimes one person had more to say about something. And so it's kind of enriching and enlivening. It's not taking away, it's not detracting, it's making it better. And that is a beautiful thing. But just to acknowledge, that would have created a lot of shame and guilt and fear in me at one point in my life, that maybe I was gonna get in trouble or someone's gonna be mad at me or, you know, even worse, the divide is going to...I'm going to be in trouble with...you know...So to be able to really sit in that space and have partnership in that space, and to let go of shame and guilt and, to your point, about the flakiness, No! This is enriching and beautiful.

Chris Roberts  14:29

Yeah, I think something that's really helped me in this whole processes is just the notion of God, or the Divine and how big He truly is. I think if you have a small God that you try to put in this box, you try to put everybody else in that box, too. And you want others to function within the parameters. To say that that God or the Mystical Mystery is much larger than I give Him credit for...You tend to see that maybe some of the wisdom of other faith traditions can be applied to your life and that the Divine is just as at work in other faith traditions as He is our own faith tradition. And so for me, the whole notion of the vastness of the Divine is really key to an openness and an understanding of what we're talking about in spiritually independent or perennial wisdom or whatever you want to say. I think, just an openness to the large-ness and vastness of God.

Christina Roberts  15:37

Yeah, and I think, in my opinion, we are on the cusp of: What does it mean to engage with this growing demographic? And I think, you know, to your point earlier, Chris, traditionally, we have had synagogues, churches, mosques, temples where people would gather for these spiritual conversations and whatever tradition they were. And I think as we're changing and growing as a culture and society, we're having to come up with innovative ways for which people can gather in these different...if you're spiritually fluid, eclectic, whatever term you're using, sometimes it has to be like "good enough for right now." Like, maybe we don't have the ideal; I feel like we're kind of in liminal space, in my opinion, of getting to those landing places for people. 

But hopefully, the contemplative life can offer some of that, whether it be through, you know, podcasts, books, retreats, one-on-one spiritual companionship, group spiritual companionship. I think that that has been such a helpful avenue for so many and would love to just continue to see that aspect grow. Thanks so much for engaging in this conversation.

At this point, in our podcast, we're going to share what we are into this week.

Kristina Kaiser  16:44

So I didn't plan this at all, but the thing that I am into right now is actually this Joy Diet Class that I am leading/participating in where we're sort of going through this book, "The Joy Diet," and there's these various menu items. So every week you add on, and then we kind of share in this email thread together how it's going. So there's 15 minutes of just sitting and doing nothing. And then we added on truth-telling: What is the story I'm telling myself, and what is a better story? And then this week, we're adding on Longing. You guys, this is changing my life. I feel like my whole world, just by way of knowing that I'm interacting with another group of people around all of this, and then, again, hearing their short reflections, so meaningful! Changing my life!

Chris Roberts  17:31

I love that whatever you're going to be into, Kristina, is going to start with the word "Joy." Joy diet, joy, light, whatever. That's great. I think, one of the things that I've been into, not necessarily this week, as far as actively engaging with the television show, but I've really been into a show called Grantchester, which is about an English Vicar. And I think what has inspired me about this television series is this priests, this Vicar, has such a great relationship in his community. He has a great relationship with the detective police officer, and they go arounsd olving crimes, because he has a great mind for uncovering mystery as well as faith. And I think what's been inspiring me about this television series is his ability to transcend the power dynamics of his role, what he does in the world, and be a relational sort of connection to those, that he, what we would call "ministers to," or is a priest to. He sort of has risen above his station of priest, the title, and he has this authenticity that I find compelling. As someone who sort of has to navigate power dynamics in his relationship, I really have looked to this Vicar as an inspiration on how to sort of transcend these power dynamics. So Grantchester is what I've been into.

Christina Roberts  19:11

Nice. So I have been into Martha Beck. She is an author and has a podcast and I'm just really finding a lot of inspiration from her life. Interestingly enough, she grew up Mormon, and I'm not sure what it is, but lately, I have been running into either ex-Mormons or current Mormons. And there's a couple other podcasts that have revealed: Oh, I grew up Mormon as well. And I'm just fascinated because I normally wouldn't have sought out Mormonism as a place to learn, kind of like what we're talking about today, right, with kind of learning from different faith traditions. But it's really interesting, number one, I think hearing people deconstruct their Mormon faith, again, it's fresh language. So as I'm working with people that are maybe deconstructing our, you know, evangelical roots or Catholic roots or whatever, it's interesting, but also, gosh, there's just some gems that, you know, Mormon people have from their faith traditions that I'm just really fascinated by and learning from. So, Martha Beck is not currently a Mormon. She definitely believes in the Divine. But she'll often quote some things from her childhood that I find fascinating. So I am into Martha Beck lately. 

Well, as always, we're so glad that you joined us and look forward to connecting again next week. In between time, if you'd like to check out thecontemplativelife.net for more resources, we invite you to do so. Make it a great week. See you next time.