Ep 8 Masculine/Feminine Energies in Spiritual Companionship

Today we are talking with Steve Spilde, Associate Director and Spiritual Director at the Franciscan Spirituality Center in La Crosse, WI. 

What is it about vulnerability that is just so amazingly hard and what makes vulnerability so special anyway? No doubt, we’ve probably all been a room where we were the minority. And probably each of us would be able to articulate the differences we felt in that situation. 

Join us as we talk about the various influences of our day that contribute to a shut-down society and what sorts of models might be available to help us shift into a more complete picture of ourselves. 

Additional Resources:

Steve Spilde: Fransican Spirituality Center
Author: Richard Rohr
Author: Brené Brown
Video: How Wolves Change Rivers 

#SpiritualCompanioning
#SpiritualDirection
#GenderStereotypes
#JungianArchetypes

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Transcript

 SUMMARY KEYWORDS

male, contemplative, spirituality, female, vulnerability, archetypes, culture, contemplative practices, perpetual adoration, Richard Rohr, Brené Brown

Dominic Kaiser: 00:00

Welcome to the contemplative life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts. 
I'm Chris Roberts. 
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Chris: 00:23

Hello, it's great to be with you today. Our co-host, Kristina Kaiser, is not with us today because of a family thing that she had. But today, I'm super excited to introduce our guest, Steve Spilde. Steve is on staff with the Franciscan Spirituality Center, and he directs the program that trains other spiritual directors. And I've had the privilege of being one of his trainees for the past two and a half years. So, Steve, welcome. We're so glad that you're with us today.

Steve: 00:56

It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Christina: 00:59

Yes, it's good to meet you, Steve. And today, I'd like to kick off our conversation just with some observations that I've been making about contemplative communities. It has been my experience that in pretty much every setting I've been in, women always outnumber the men. And I'm sure you both agree with that. However, what strikes me as interesting is that: When you look back at the origin of many of these spiritual formation practices, it started with priests or monks centuries ago. So, I find myself curious: Why this shift? And what do we think this speaks to the wider culture? So, Steve, maybe you can kick us off with some of your thoughts.

Steve: 01:36

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's certainly true. I work at the Franciscan spirituality center. In La Crosse, we host a lot of programs, a lot of workshop, the Spiritual Direction Preparation Program is one of them. The Spiritual Direction Preparation Program, I would say, over history, we probably get between 20 and 25% male participants in our groups. And so yeah, females are anywhere from 75 to 80%. And that's actually a pretty good turnout for us in terms of male participation. A lot of the workshops we offer and the retreats, it's not unusual for it to be 100% female. And if we get one guy out of a group of 12, we're feeling pretty happy about that. So I work on staff, the only male member of our staff. We have about 10 people on our team. I'm the only male. It's not unusual for me to be in a meeting where I'm the only male participant, sometimes that gets to be kind of strange if I'm leading the group, and I'm a male leader with all female participants. But that's just the dynamic. So my own sense of what that is about: Two of the teachers who are real influential for me, Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan priest, author, very prolific author, he talks in some of his books about male spirituality. And then Brené Brown has been very influential to me, talking about the role of vulnerability and shame in our growth as humans. She talks about this some too. And the thing that I hear in both of these authors is that in our culture, vulnerability is hard for everyone and particularly hard for men, that a lot of our definition of what it means to be male is to not be vulnerable. And my understanding of spirituality oftentimes is growth in our comfort with being vulnerable. 

So that's a tough sell. I mean, if if your role as a "solid man" is to not be vulnerable, and yet, to practice spirituality IS to enter into vulnerability, that kind of closes the door to men. So I don't see that as an issue of spirituality so much as really our definition of what it means to be male in this culture. 

So therefore, like you're saying, at one time, when the culture was different, probably it was not so much of a conflict. But as our culture has evolved... and to be living in this world at this time is hard on men and it's particularly hard on women.

Chris: 04:12

It makes me think of Carl Jung who talked a lot about archetypes, and archetypes that are championed in our society are things like warrior archetype. You know, the Achieved the Victory. That seems to be okay for men to do, to go out and win battles and be victorious and career...But the archetypes that aren't explored are like the Sage archetype, or the Wise King archetype. And those are the archetypes that I think lend themselves to contemplative spirituality, because you have to sit with the decisions that you make more. You have to really look deep within and your decision making isn't based on: Am I going to win? Or am I going to lose? It's based on: What is the good for the whole here? What would it look like to champion that archetype in our society today is a question that I've been sitting with.

Steve: 05:11

I think Richard Rohr has some good content in that regard. He talks a lot about first-half-of-life spirituality and second-half-of-life, spirituality. First half-of-life is really about building the ego, kind of discovering who we are, discovering what we're capable of in terms of the framework you've described, seeing, seeing what we can conquer. And then the second half-of-life is acknowledging what we can't conquer, which I think feeds into connecting with our vulnerability. Part of that, too, is just the life cycle, is first half-of-life, we're growing stronger, we're building our muscles, we're seeing what we can do, we're seeing if we run a business, we're building our business, we're building our family. 

But then as we get older and start to age, it's, it's about starting to let go - that business, we're gonna have to prepare to pass that on to the next generation. As we get older, our friends start to die, our body starts to die. We start to lose capacity, lose muscle tone. So I think those archetypes you're describing like the the sage, the wise king, those are more models that fit better with the second half-of-life. I think our culture really has a hard time with that, where we don't even see that there's a second half-of-life. We're in denial of death, denial of aging, denial of vulnerability. I think those two match well.

Christina: 06:30

Years ago, I heard a Richard word teaching about male and female spirituality and the journey and how typically women have been more the "descent" in the first half-of-life with maybe childbearing, serving the young, involved in the community. And as they, then, enter into the second half, and some of those responsibilities are lessened, maybe entering into that space...But how, even in modern times, that's flipped a little bit now, where I think as a culture in general, we're kind of perpetuating towards that first half-of-life striving and achievement that you're describing. 

And it's interesting to me, just kind of reflecting...and again, much of my introduction to some of these spiritual practices have been studying St. Benedict or Ignation and some of the models from centuries ago. And as I've gotten to know some nuns and sisters in recent years...really discovering kind of the fringe work that these women are doing with, I think, maybe taking some of the (in my opinion, I'm a female pastor, as well as working with spiritual guidance). And in female-pastor-colleague situations, I'm always the minority. Often I'm the only female in the room when it comes to church leadership. And so it's flipped for me kind of what you're describing, Steve, of often being the only male in those circles. It's definitely: I'm the only one. 

And I think my introduction to this idea of deep listening and drawing out the soul...when I was first introduced to some of this training, I remember it was me in a room of, you know, 30 men, and I loved it. It was very natural. To me, it was organic. And many of my male colleagues struggled because they were used to telling people what to do, and having more of a prescriptive spirituality and leadership as opposed to trusting that the spirit's at work and we're just to come alongside that...And so I wonder, even in your experiences as well, how you see some of the maybe fringe work that nuns and sisters and females are doing in the contemplative work and how that's maybe helping to shape what we're experiencing. 

Steve: 08:28

Two thoughts come to mind. The Spirituality Center where I work at is sponsored by the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in La Crosse. They're a community of members across the country, but La Crosse is home base for them. They have really been shaped by the experience of perpetual adoration. In the Catholic tradition, adoration is to sit in silence before the communion element, actual body and blood of Christ. By sitting in the presence of those elements, there's a connection to Christ in a very powerful way in that Catholic understanding. 

Well, these sisters had a dream 140 years ago of doing perpetual adoration, and for 140 years, there was two of them sitting in adoration, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. That sitting in adoration, in silence with God really formed their identity as a community, as individuals. It shaped their spirituality. It was a very intentional way of practicing a contemplative spirituality, which in my understanding, basically is a way of praying that's basically based on listening is based  in silence, as opposed to a prayer style which is very much about speaking. 

And so I think you can make a case that that speaking is more of an outward thing, which is kind of identified with male energy. And that listening and receiving is more identified with with female energy. I think it's not a coincidence that within the realm of the church that was really the domain of the women participants, contemplative spirituality was really nurtured. That would be my connection with it. I've been really shaped by that. The sisters have really taught me the gifts of contemplative spirituality, which has been amazing to me, because that was foreign territory to me. I didn't know that was an option. 

The other thing I want to say too, is that I think our culture is really kind of missing out in a lot because we do tend to make such a division between what is male and what is female. I don't think that's healthy for either of the sexes. I think Healthy Spirituality oftentimes is about becoming more integrated, more whole, embracing all the sides of life. As a male, I become healthier, when I embrace more of my female attributes. As a female, you become more healthy as you also embrace more of the male attributes. I mean, it's not either/or. I think health is more about both/and. By keeping these lines so sharp, we're really doing ourselves and each other a disservice.

Christina: 11:08

Yeah, I appreciate you naming that. And again, sort of, the different male female energies that we all possess, and, you know, the hope is that we continue to ebb and flow in our own lives. But then even also in community as well, to have those different energies and voices represented. And it's interesting to me, the longer I'm in pastoral roles, some of my cohort situations...like I'm in a new one now with a group of local pastors here who gather. And it's very much not that I'm the only female in the room anymore. And the way in which the conversations go and how we females are learning from the males as well...it's just, in my opinion, getting much healthier in that direction. So I appreciate you naming that.

Steve: 11:50

You know, kind of talking about the different ways of praying, you know, the more contemplative silence-based, and then more of the speaking-based, there's room for both of them. Once again, it's both/and. To have dialogue, to have the access to both dimensions, rather than say, "one is good ones, not one better ones lesser." No, and the more we can integrate that, the healthier we all are. And I think ultimately, it's a gift for men, because when "to be male" is to "always be strong, to never be vulnerable," that becomes a prison, eventually. There are times when we're hurt. There are times when we're weak. And to be able to name that and then get support for those times, that becomes ultimately a gift. 

Chris: 12:34

Yeah. I'm asked by a few friends: What's this training that you're doing? What's this Spiritual Direction Program that you're doing? And I talked about a little bit and, they're curious. Some of my male friends, the subject comes up. And so I look around the room, and I'm one of four guys in this circle. They're curious about that: Is it for men? Is it for women? They ask the question: Well, how did you end up, if there's so few men, how are you one of the men that ended up in this program? 

You know, I think for myself, something that's been a huge part of my journey is: We both have adopted children, the Roberts family in this building family, and early on, there was this sense that the father, or male figure, needed to be heavily involved in our children's life. And so I was a stay-at-home Dad. I was taking my children to playdates at the library and all these places. And typically, these are places where women take their children. And so I found myself sitting in these spaces with only women. I was confronted with this thing of: Can I be comfortable doing something that is typically viewed as a female thing? and I think that really helped me find my way into contemplative circles and contemplative practices, which, I think, has been extremely beneficial for my life as a male. So I really have appreciated what you've been saying about male energies and female energies and how we become more holistic when we embrace both and so thank you for that.

Steve: 14:13

We do have that in common. I had forgotten that we had that in common. Yeah, our daughter has some special needs, and it made more sense for me to be the one to stay home with her for awhile earlier in life when she needed a lot of extra support and  had a lot of therapy. I was the one who stayed home with her and, like you, I found myself in a lot of circles, play dates, at the park, being the only male, which, I had to work through a lot of messages, a lot of internal messages. But also, I stayed with it long enough to start to recognize the giftedness of that. What I was giving to my daughter, probably more importantly, I was giving to myself, because it was a lot of nurturing and support I didn't receive as a child, as a male, And the message I got as a male was: Suck it up. That can work for a while, but it's not very healthy. It comes out in unhealthy ways eventually. 

I had to learn how to nurture myself if I was going to nurture my daughter. It was, too, some of the gifts of contemplative spirituality that I learned how to do that. 

Another thing though, I've stayed with it. I served as a pastor for a long time. I'm finding in terms of the stereotypical role of male leader, using the gifts of a contemplative approach actually is a lot more effective. If I tell you, "Chris, you've got this problem. This is what you need to do to fix it." Most of the time, people won't listen to that. They kind of resist that. But if I take the time to listen to you and say, "Chris, tell me what's going on." And you tell me what's working and what's not working, when you finally get around to saying, "How can you help me?" I can just repeat your words back to you and say, "Well, it sounds like this works. It sounds like this doesn't work. Let's do more of what is working and less of what's not working? How does that sound to you?" 

And most time people say, "Wow!" Taking the time to listen and reflect that back to people becomes an a lot more effective way of leading them, versus saying: I've got all the answers, just listen to me. People tend to resist that. So I'm learning that a contemplative approach/spiritual direction approach actually works better if your goal is to help people, to coach people, to try to guide them. 

Christina: 16:33

I couldn't agree more with you, Steve. So I'm wondering, as we kind of wrap up here, what are some of your thoughts as far as what you hope to see in the next 10 20, 30 years in the area of spiritual guidance/spiritual formation, specifically in regards to what we've been talking about this morning? 

Steve: 16:53

That's an that's an excellent question. When I started working at the Center, I had a lot of passion about this: How can we get more men coming to our programs? How can we get more guys involved? And we were honored to host Paula D'Arcy as a presenter for an event. And she's done a lot of teaching with Richard Rohr. She's written a lot of books, just very, very wonderful person. And so she does this a lot. She travels around, she gives workshops, she gives retreats at a lot of different centers. And I was sharing with her that we really struggled to reach men, and how could we do that? 

And she said, "Well, how many men do you get?" I said, "Well, usually we're lucky to get 10%, and if we really hit out of the park, we might get 30%." She said, "Wow, that's wonderful! That's as good at any place I've ever seen." So she kind of let me know it that it's not unique to us. 

So I said, "Well, what have you seen works to reach men?" And she said, "Well, to be honest, you need to have male presenters." She goes, "If I'm on the, the flyer giving a workshop, and it's just me," she goes, "It's gonna be all women in the audience. If I'm doing a presentation with Richard Rohr," she goes, "We might get 30% men."  She goes, "It really has to be a male as part of the presentation." 

I guess part of that is define those male leaders, to bring them forward, to give them permission to start talking about this stuff. And the more there will be male leaders talking about it, I think that will give other men permission to join the conversation. Chris, I'm glad you're part of our cohort. I'm glad you're talking about this stuff. I think that's the way to bring other men along. 

Chris: 18:44

Yeah, I really want to see this become more accessible to men in our culture. I really am interested in thinking about: How do we develop constructs? And I think you're saying that, as this presenter said, having a male on the flyer or a Male Speaker at programs is one of those tools that you could use to draw more male participation. 

I don't think it's because I feel threatened when I go into a room and they're all women. It's just that I want to see more male energy as it relates to ushering forth wisdom into our communities. And I think wisdom comes from learning from your mistakes. And I think contemplation can help by learning from failures and being okay with your failures. I think that's a lot of the contemplative life right? Our failures are not bad things. They're things that perpetuate a sport and help us to learn and a greater capacity and to be more compassionate with ourselves, is a lot about contemplative spirituality. Coming into a culture, men can be vulnerable. Men can cry. Men can do things that are typically "feminine in nature," I think, is only going to make us a stronger society and a more caring society and a more loving place for our communities.

Steve: 20:11

I agree with that. And I think the "bringing the healing" because men in particular have...everyone has pain...but men, oftentimes, in the stereotypical male framework don't have any healthy outlets for that. And the primary outlet is: If you're hurting, Rohr, says: You either transmit your pain or you transfer your pain. 

And that's kind of the model oftentimes is to transmit our pain onto somebody else. If I'm hurting, I go beat up on somebody else, either verbally or physically, to make myself feel better. Ultimately, that isn't very helpful for me. And it's certainly not helpful for the person on the receiving end. Whereas if we can have these gifts of listening to each other, letting our pain out in healthy ways that will actually make ourselves feel better, that doesn't make someone else feel worse, it brings healing. So I think it's really important that we figure this out.

Christina: 21:05

I certainly hear what you're saying, Steve, about the need for diverse voices. And that's something definitely in my circles that we're working towards, whether it relates to gender diversity, ethnic-socio economics. I think that's super important. Yet, I'm struck by both your story and Chris's, and how it seems as though your way into contemplative practices came through a different measure. It came through being in circles around other moms. It came through serving your children. It came through maybe the backdoor, as opposed to a flyer. And my guess is that it wasn't because there was a man on a flyer that drew you to dive in deeper to contemplative practices, but maybe a recognition of what's going on in your own lives. 

And I think that that's something that I would hope for is that: As we are  more open in conversation around some of the things you mentioned earlier, like the Brené Brown material on vulnerability and really helping people to see the value of that. Or, I think in the corporate world, we're seeing more and more training around emotional intelligence, and maybe normalizing some of these things that we're identifying as typically "female energy" or "male energy" and sort of widening that spectrum, that it all is part of us and being able to be comfortable with all of those spaces. And so I think that is a hope that I have, that we can continue having these examples and models and conversations. And yes, maybe sometimes through the front door, quote, unquote, with the speaker and the presenter, but I think also just through regular everyday life and our sharing.

This is the part of our podcast where we'd like to share what we were into this week, and we asked Steve if he wanted to be part of that. So maybe we'll start with Chris. Chris, what are you into this week?

Chris: 22:54

Well, I've really been into cowbell. For some reason, we were watching YouTube and an old Saturday Night Live skit came on. It's the one about more cowbell. And my daughter was watching with me, and she's like, "What is this?!" And I said, "Well, this is a famous band, The Blue Oyster Cult." And she thought Will Ferrell was hilarious, just beating away on that cowbell. And so we've been listening to songs and we've been listening for cowbell. And this morning, the Blue Oyster Cult came on, the song came on the radio. And she's like, "Does this song even really have the cowbell?" And we were listening and she's like, "There it is! Right there!" And so we've been really in tune to music, whether it has cowbell or not. So I've really been into cowbell.

Steve: 23:49

All time best skit on Saturday Night Live! Okay, for me, my wife has had the second vaccination. I've had the first and looking forward to, in a couple of weeks, getting the second vaccination. So, we're looking forward to getting out and about, even though it's still not going to be over. But yet, maybe feel safe to go to a restaurant and have a dinner and go out to a movie. Our thing we're into is getting out of the house again.

Christina: 24:26

Yes, yes. And I am into a YouTube video. I think it's called "How the Wolves Saved Yellowstone National Park." And it's probably about an eight-minute video clip showing how wolves were removed and how the park was. And then when they brought wolves back in, the entire ecosystem just changed, including the rivers. And it was just this amazing, stunning video. So I watched it. I made my kids watch it. And I've just really been sitting with the connectedness of all of the ecosystem and wolves typically not being an animal that you celebrate as healers of the land, and again, even that male/female energy of, something about the wolves being able to bring that healing has just been striking and beautiful. So that's what I've been into this week. 

Well, thanks so much for joining us today. If you are looking for more resources, we invite you to check out the contemplativelife.net. Until next time, make it a great week! Thanks!