Ep 6 Spiritual, Yes. Religious, No.

If church doesn’t work for us, what does it look like to grow in our spiritual awareness?

Join us as we reflect on the spiritual self. Each of our lives holds meaning and purpose. But many of us struggle to unpack what that is exactly. In this episode, we consider the pathways available to us all, regardless of titles, schedules, or belief structures. 

Additional Resources:
The Jesuits Guide to Almost Everything by James Martin
Blog Post: 6 Pathways to God
For Light by John O’Donohue
Deepak Chopra

#SpiritualCompanioning
#SpiritualDirection
#SpirituallyIndependent
#NotReligious

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

contemplative, spirituality, spiritual, religious, church, faith, Fair Trade

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.

I'm Chris Roberts. 

I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.

Chris Roberts  00:25

Well, hello, it's great to be with you. Today we're going to talk about how the contemplative life can be helpful for people who identify as spiritual but not religious, or another term that's emerging is spiritually independent. And this is a conversation that is really dear to my heart; I really love talking about - and talking to - people that would consider themselves in this category. 

For for a number of years, I met at a pub for Monday Night Football and other events. And I met some individuals at this pub...We decided to meet, regardless of what sporting event was on, just so we could have conversation with one another. Some of the participants were former Catholics, former Lutherans, and they would consider themselves to be spiritual, but not religious. They've left the catholic church or left a different denomination. 

They would tell me all the time, "Hey, Chris, where's your church again? I would love to come, you know, hang out at your church." And for some reason, none of my friends who would gather at the pub would ever make it to a church service. They could not enter into the walls of a church building, but they loved coming on Monday nights. It was a highlight for them. It was a highlight of the week, and we would ask questions about how they're engaging with God, how they're engaging with various things that are going on in life. 

Something that I've been giving thought to is: If spiritual but not religious people have challenges to entering into a church space, how do we provide construct; how do we provide a pathway for them to explore spirituality?

Kristina Kaiser  02:21

I think this is great, and I feel like I, too, have seen so much of this kind of thing. We were at one point running this once a month, Friday night-coffee-open experience. And so we were doing all these Fai Trade coffees and all the proceeds were going to fight human trafficking; it was a lot of fun. And we would get people that would come in, maybe connected to people in their church, and I remember at one point, somebody saying specifically, "If I was looking for a church, I would go to yours. But I am not looking for a church, so, I won't be coming." 

And that just seems to be an increasing theme...But I agree with you. There is this interest in spirituality; it's not being void of spirituality. And so I have found it helpful to also think about the contemplative and how that fits in. Particularly, I was reading a blog post not too long ago...I don't even know what blog it was. But somebody was saying that a good definition for the contemplative is this opening, this becoming aware and opening to awareness, which I personally find helpful in the busy-ness of my day to day, even, that there's this: Can I be aware of something bigger than just the stresses of my day? And how do I get through that? 

And it's funny, actually, I was talking to our oldest daughter the other day, she's like, "But then you would spend your whole life just trying to let go of things." And I was like, "Yeah, basically." And she said, "But you would have to keep doing it over and over again." And I said, "Yeah." [Laughing]

So I have seen it though, where "religious" seems to...I mean, I'm sure there's a ton of things that "religious" could be. But one aspect seems to be this rigidity of like, "You've got to do this, you've got to do that." And our lives tend not to work that way. Our lives tend to need flexibility, seasons of life. I was recently interviewing somebody on prayer, which I would consider them to be an intercessor. They pray for things, they have a plan. But they would have said, to, that when they had five babies at home, now their babies are grown, but the notion of getting up and having a rigid schedule or being up at 5am wasn't gonna work. And even if you went to a different tradition, like someone that can meditate for five hours, if you have five babies at home, you probably can't meditate for five hours. So this flexibility, this freedom to embrace a season but still open to awareness feels super important.

Christina Roberts  04:56

I find maybe two categories of this thing that you're talking about, Chris, where, I think there's spiritually independent, or spiritual but not religious people that have never grown up with any sort of faith tradition. And so coming at it from, kind of, an open slate of: This is new to me, and what does that mean? And then I think people that have had that, and because of thoughtfulness and culture and life experiences, we've moved away from some of that religion aspect of it. But there's definitely a very deep spirituality. And it's interesting with just opportunities to be a spiritual companion for people, there's definitely people that I meet with that, it's almost like...such a very deep, deep part of us to talk about spiritual things. And there's pretty much nowhere to talk about spiritual things. And so, I have some people that have been seeking out life coaching. (So I offer spiritual direction and life coaching.) And it's like: Okay, I can come to you as a life coach because that seems like a open enough thing, and I'm not a spiritual or a religious person. But then through that, and not that I have an agenda, but because we're just talking about life and things, spirituality tends to spill out in some surprising ways that maybe people didn't think that they were going to...And all of a sudden, it's like, I'm talking about this thing that I haven't talked about in 15 years. And I feel very vulnerable doing it, but there's something in me that, I can't stop myself because there's just this gush of thing. And then being met with a listening ear that's not trying to force an agenda, I think there is very much a desire and a hunger to find our place in spiritual conversations, both as individuals, but also the collective of "church doesn't work," and so what does it mean to grow with others in spiritual awareness?

Chris Roberts  06:46

Yes, I like what you're saying there, Christina: Helping people grow in awareness. And I like that you made a distinction, like those that are, sort of, leaving faith and those that have never had any sort of faith construct. And I find myself being able to really speak well to the people that are maybe leaving faith. But I find myself looking for new language to help people who have just never had any sort of faith construct. 

Yeah, I heard a quote by, I think I'm saying his name right, Deepak Chopra. But he said this quote: Religion is belief in someone else's experience. Spirituality is having your own experience. And atheism is no experience, only measurement. 

And so I like thinking about: How do I get in conversations with people? I think people are wanting to talk about these experiences that they have. Whether they go to church or not, they want to talk about what's coming up in their lives. And a lot of times, it's a dream that they had that they think has some significance, that it's just sitting with them. I liked the distinction that you made, Christina, about those that have no faith construct and those that come from a faith, as we think about spiritually independent people.

Kristina Kaiser  08:16

That is really helpful, and can you repeat that quote because I just find it so useful?

Chris Roberts  08:20

So the quote is: Religion is belief in someone else's experience. Spirituality is having your own experience. Atheism is no experience, only measurement.

Kristina Kaiser  08:32

That's right. "Having your own experience, yes." 

This is good, right?! And I feel like, even in the midst, where the contemplative seems to just: everybody is having a similar experience...you feel overwhelmed. You don't know which way to go. You had a weird dream. These are common experiences, whereas, you know, maybe "religious" serves its own purpose, per se. But this business of: Each of us is trying to walk through a life meaningfully, that ability to have an experience or to have somebody help you sort through your experience...I think, Chris, did you say at a previous podcasts like, "Where do you get someone who will just listen to you for 30 minutes where you could just talk?" That's a pretty rare experience.

Chris Roberts  09:22

Yeah, I think, you know, spiritual direction, spiritual companion, or life coaching, you know, provides experiences for people to just share their own story, to share what's coming up in their life. And, you know, people really find that getting in touch with their own story, getting in touch with these experiences: Do they do they have meaning? Do they point to something in my life? Do they point to something greater? And providing a space for them to be able to have these conversations, I think, is going to be more and more important as we move forward, because I think more and more people find themselves aligning with spiritually independent or spiritual but not religious.

Christina Roberts  10:08

And I think it's important for those people to, number one, feel validated, but also, to recognize that they're not alone. Because I think sometimes there can just be a sense of like: Is anybody else asking these questions? Is anybody else experiencing these things? And again, it's such a private thing. It's not like in casual conversation: Hey, guess what, I had this dream last night. Or: I was out on a mountain hiking, and all of a sudden, I just felt this, like, other presence that, in our culture, those sorts of things aren't casual conversation that you have with people. We talk about, you know, the latest Netflix thing that we're into, or whatever it is. 

And so I think, super important to offer spaces where, again, there's validation, exploration, and judgment free zones, if you will. Where, wherever you're at, it matters, there's meaning. And I think it's important, too...who cares about the language, whatever you call, whatever it is. I think there's these common experiences, but maybe sometimes we're tripped up on the language. And I think if we can let go of all of that and just really have a listening heart and ear for one another. boy, I learn so much from the people that I companion that would consider themselves in this category. It's so rich to me because they are coming at it with fresh language and these insights that are just universal of humans that I find really rich.

And I think there's this beautiful contemplative tree...And some of the things that we all do, we maybe haven't even ascribed to: Oh, that's because of my connection to the Divine in any kind of a way. But if you care about other people, which I don't know anybody who doesn't care at all about other people. That is a contemplative act. Who knew?! 

Kristina Kaiser  11:51

So I think a lot of times people think: Oh, contemplative is just being quiet. It's just sitting there saying nothing. And so then they push that whole concept away. But as we engage to care about other people's lives, or look for equity, if we refer back to the social justice stuff from a couple weeks ago, this is all part of the human experience and opening to that: Oh, yes, I can. I do have enough. I don't have to walk through with blinders (because otherwise, I'd be overwhelmed or whatever.) These are all part of it. 

Christina Roberts  12:23

Yeah, and I think that's helpful. Over the past year, I've had a handful of couples that I've been walking through a premarital mentoring curriculum that I do. And each of the couples have had mixed faith expressions. And so whether it be an atheist and a Christian, or maybe two Christians that are coming from different angles, or an ex -whatever it is, with a current. And I think, often as people are with a significant other, exploring marriage, and what spirituality is going to look like, I think, to your point, Kristina, that sometimes there's these expectations that spirituality and faith has to look a certain way. Versus, I think, sometimes when I'm mentioning, like you're saying, like: Oh, that right, there is an expression of your spirituality and faith. It's like this "aha moment," like: Oh, that counts? Or that's real? Or...and even for the spouse that might seem, quote, "more devout" or more into spirituality, it's like, "Absolutely!" 

And I think, all of a sudden, you see this equity. And, "Wow! We are really both spiritual beings, but just expressed in ways that maybe one is acknowledged more, or accepted, or fits into nice boxes. Where, these other ones don't, but it's all part of the spirituality and aspects that we can learn from one another.

Chris Roberts  13:34

I feel like this is such a rich conversation. And we've really sort of opened Pandora's box, talking about the spiritual but not religious, because all of life is spiritual. You know, all of life has meaning, has purpose. And there's the Divine to be found in all things. 

Christina Roberts  13:58

I do want to mention one other resource. So on our website, we have a blog. And we're going to have a blog going along with this episode that is from the book "The Jesuits Guide to Almost Anything," and he lays out the six paths that Ignatian Spirituality describes - what we're talking about, different pathways to God. And so you might find that helpful as another thinking point on this idea of what it means to be spiritual and not religious and different ways in which we tend to meet with the Divine. 

I also recognize that, coming from a Catholic writer, for some people that can be triggering, for others, it's fine. And so I think even acknowledging that sometimes different aspects, if we're coming from a faith tradition, sometimes it's hard to sift through negative experiences that we've had to find the good in it, kind of going back to the language etc. But for those that aren't triggered by that, we would love to invite you to go check out that blog post that goes along with this episode.

Chris Roberts  15:01

This is the part of the podcast where we talk about what we're into.

Kristina Kaiser  15:07

Going back to my love of words from a little while back in one of our other episodes, this week, I am into Wordscapes because...for like, I don't know, half a year, I've been trying to get our oldest to like crossword puzzles. And she didn't care about it at all. But then she discovered Wordscapes, and she's super into it. So we are in a competition to see who can figure out the most words. And it has been so much fun.

Chris Roberts  15:35

Well, I've really been into John O'Donohue poetry lately. And he is an author who has been super influential for the past couple of decades. But he has a poem called "For Light." And I don't know if you sparked this idea me, Kristina, talking about light and loving light. But I've really been into this poem because it talks about the different times in a day and the different times of life. So I went out for a walk at twilight, and I watched how the light was hitting the snow. And I just had this amazing experience with twilight. And the other day I was driving home. (I drive bus pretty early in the morning,) and I was driving home about nine o'clock. And the moon was just big and bright at nine in the morning. So you've got the sun on one side, and you've got the moon that is just this beautiful silhouette in the background. And so I have really been appreciating, like, the different types of light by the sun and the moon and by candles and all that stuff.

Christina Roberts  16:53

Beautiful. Love it. So I am into something that I've been into for probably two years, but I find it helpful to go back and think about why I've been to it. And that is intermittent fasting. I was recently in a conversation with someone who is starting this and it made me kind of reflect on how this has been such a great gift in my life. And just taking time to allow my digestive system to rest for X amount of hours every day has been just really remarkable as far as, number one, just recognizing that our body also needs digestive rest. Like that's just kind of an important piece. And just my interaction with food and getting more in touch with my hunger cues and when I'm eating, and sometimes it's like, "I'm just really hungry, even though I ate 45 minutes ago, I'm hungry again. And so I'm gonna keep eating because my body is saying it needs some fuel right now." And it's just so liberating and freeing and just been a wonderful practice for me. So I am re-into, I guess, the aspect of intermittent fasting.

Chris Roberts  17:54

Well, it was so good to be with you today. We're glad that you joined us. And for more resources, check out thecontemplativelife.net. We would love for you to interact with us in that way as well. So until next time, see you.