Ep 96 “Being with”/ “Doing For”

How do we relate to the Divine? It’s easy in our cultural context to interact in the world as a fixer, a doer, a mover and a shaker. We’ve all been trained to engage in these transactional ways. And yet, another way is possible, a way that values our belovedness and allows us to become more comfortable with our tensions, our questions, and our not knowing. In today’s podcast, we consider the paths we can take in order to strengthen our ability to simply be, for “simply being” to be enough. 

Additional Resources
Meditation Practice: Interspiritual Meditation by Edward Bastien
Smoothie Recipes: YouTube Personality Autumn Bates

#Retreat #CenteringPrayer #PrayerPractices #SpiritualPractices #YinYoga #Yoga #Wellness #Community

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Transcript

 SUMMARY KEYWORDS
centering prayer, engage, transactional, 

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser.  We're glad you joined us. 

Chris Roberts  00:23

Hello, it is great to be with you. Today I'd like to explore this idea of how we relate to God. The topic today is being with/ doing for. And it seems that many faith traditions emphasize what we do for God. And this might be doing certain moral actions or not doing certain actions as a way to please God. And so the emphasis is “doing for” contrasting this idea of “being with”, the emphasis is on relational connection.  Being with God is the focus rather than the thing we are doing. And so an example of that in my life, I learned very early on in my marriage that if I'm with my wife and I'm hearing how her day went, a lot of times, I would then say, you need to do this, or I can do this for you. And it's funny how those conversations didn't really go well. I just want you to listen to me and be with me, rather than trying to fix the struggle that I'm in. And I think that's probably where a lot of people feel this tension, right? Because if there is some sort of struggle, or there's maybe a dissonance, or what do I do as a way to get out of that. And so I can see the temptation of this sort of doing. But how do we want to think about being with in contrast to doing for?  I pose that question to both of you. 

Christina Roberts  02:09

I think it's an interesting idea. And I was actually just sitting with someone recently, and he was talking about the lack of vibrancy in his faith journey, and wanting to get to a solution.  What do I do to get back to that place of feeling a vibrant, spiritual life? And as we were conversing, a question emerged. And I said, one of the beautiful things about the Quaker tradition is that they really, I think, are an example of how to sit with a question. And to allow the question to emerge. Another question that's maybe underneath that's a little bit deeper. So rather than what are the things that I need to do to have that vibrant spiritual life, I was hearing some questions in you today of,  What does that even mean? A vibrant spiritual life? Why am I curious about going backwards to a vibrant spiritual life? What does that mean for me now and offering this individual invitation? Would you be willing to sit with the question as opposed to having to go towards an answer? And that's very different, it's uncomfortable. But I think if we're willing to do that, and to be with the Spirit, and there's something in me, that feels a different disconnect that once was something.  But rather than jumping to now, that means I have to do whatever app or spend time journaling instead of what is it in me that's not being met with the desire that's there?  I think that's a very different space that we're talking about. So that's an immediate example that comes up for me as we're bringing up this topic. 

Kristina Kaiser  03:25

Wow, as I listened to both of you talk, I'm reminded of some of these social justice conversations that I've been in recently. And I know that these are like huge words, and they can even be triggering. So just to say upfront, I don't mean to be triggering. But when we talk about things like white supremacy, or patriarchal culture, a lot of the things that tend to come up with that are quantity versus quality.  Getting things done and feeling like we have the answers, productivity is a huge aspect of it. And to the point that we don't usually know how much that's true for us. It’s like we were born that way. But of course, we've been trained through the things that people say to us and the whole bit, so it feels like we were just born this way. But in fact, we've been enculturated it turns out, and so I think of how easy it is to get into that. What do I need to do? What's my list of things that I need to do? And it's funny when I talk to people, this comes up so much, and then it usually shifts the conversation to I don't know if I'm gonna like it, I'm worried that I might be bored. So there's a sense of obligation and a sense of fear and trepidation over having to do the thing, which is very different from  sometimes when we talk about this out flow, this pouring out space. They're very different spaces. So that just comes to mind because of the conversations I've been in recently. 

Christina Roberts  04:59

I think about what we can see or what we do with our lives, where time just passes. Wow, three hours passed by and where did the time go? Because you're just immersed in whatever it is that you're engaged with. And so I think that there is an aspect of, “doing things”, but it's in the space of “being with”.  I'm with my art right now. And so the time flies by or I'm with my music, or I'm with cooking, or putzing around or whatever it is.  And not that we're saying that you can never do things. But I think attitude and the intention behind that seems really important.

Chris Roberts  05:28

Yeah. And I think it's worth bringing up that a lot of people get their value out of doing.  There's this thing in us if we do this, I therefore have value.  I have value for what I bring to the table in the things that I'm doing. And so being a part of a utilitarian society where it's like an accomplishment to do, I think it's very countercultural to just be with. And so I think, first of all, we have to look at where we are getting our value? Is our value coming from the things that we're doing? Or is it just who we are, particularly as it relates to our faith? I'm this beloved person, there's intrinsic value in that. And whenever you're used to, I've served in all these capacities, and it's just wonderful. And I'm not trying to downplay service, I think service is amazing. I think service as a way to connect you to the community is a wonderful thing. But if your value comes from all the ways that you're serving, at some point, you're going to run into a wall.

Kristina Kaiser  06:39

Yeah, there's that you were valuable before you did the things which can be difficult to connect with, I think. And there is a sense of how we get to that space of its flowing out.  I'm part of a meditation group, and we use this inter spiritual meditation kind of framework to gather together because we don't all come from the same faith background. So it allows them to come together and it starts at happy and healthy, may we be happy and healthy. And we spend time in gratitude. And it's not until the very end, that there's this moment of May we be in service to all.  Like number seven of all the things. And often when it's presented, it is presented under this out of the love, out of the outpouring, out of all that I have. Filled up with not even just me, I serve someone, but some of this love that I'm feeling may go out into the world. Sometimes it might be but sometimes just the act of cooking dinner is my service today. And that is enough. Which again, it's very difficult. Many of us really struggle with that notion of you are enough, just as you are.

Christina Roberts  07:55

It's interesting, I was co facilitating a retreat last week with a group of nonprofit leaders and pastors. And we intentionally had a two hour lunch where it was just leisurely, we could have conversation. And I think the people that were there for a two day retreat were shocked that we were able to do that. And multiple people over and over. Thank you so much, because this actually felt like a retreat. And noting that every other retreat that they had gone to was probably more like a conference.  It was like, get the goods, get the information, be saturated, and all of this so that you could actually go back and “do”.  It wasn't to just be and to be with ourselves with whatever we needed that day. And we said during the lunch break, please refrain from work. So whatever you want to do for yourself, or if you want to engage with another, please don't use it to get caught up on your emails and things like that. And I think that was freeing for people again, just that we came away with such richness. And I think what you're talking about Kristina. We got in touch with ourselves, we shared stories with one another, and the inspiration that flowed from that place. You can't compare to the cramped packing of the information onto the doing space. And so I think that's important. And yet I'm realizing why I think that's foreign to us to have those experiences like we're just not used to that, again, to your point, Chris, about that utilitarian “do” and that the worth comes from that as opposed to just sharing a meal leisurely and having that time with you is so valuable. 

Chris Roberts  09:15

I think one other thing that comes up for me is the notion of transactional versus transformational.  Transactional is this exchange that happens based on goods or whatever. And so I was meeting with someone and we're talking about maybe different spiritual practices to institute or to start trying and the whole centering prayer came up. What value does centering prayer have for your life? And I was talking about maybe value is not the right word. Like it's the state of being right. You're not doing anything. You're just being, you're taking 20 minutes and for those that maybe want to try centering prayer.  I don't want to say 20 minutes is the end all be all, some people need to start at 10 minutes. But the idea is to get to 20 minutes where you're just sitting, and you're letting go of all these thoughts. And usually, the thoughts are based on fear, you're just trying to be, you have a sacred word.  You're just trying to be, your imagination doesn't think of art or creative pieces that you want to engage with, your mind thinks about all the things that you want to do.  You start to develop a list in your head. And so it's a very grounded practice of being. And so if you noticed that, as you're sitting there, and centering prayer, and you're thinking of, I gotta get this done, or maybe I could do this, or all the different lists that come up, it's such a pull away from that transactional doing.  It really grounds people in this notion of being. And so I thought I would lift that up as maybe a way, if anyone is struggling with being contrast doing that centering prayer might be something to check out or engage in.

Christina Roberts  11:05

Yeah, maybe building off of that, too.  This has been the month of retreats for me. So I was also at a retreat two days ago, that was yoga and wellness. Our yoga facilitator chose to do the yin yoga, which is having a position and then you hold it for a couple of minutes. And so just sitting with your body in that and noticing your body in whatever particular position that you were in.  Again, to your point, Chris, the centering prayer was that that practice that you're naming, it was the same with the yin yoga. The most simple thing like she had us do this, like a lotus flower with our hands and our fingers were spread out. And I hadn't done that before by our heart. And to hold that for two minutes. It was intense for me. And I'm like, why is that so intense, it's just my hands spread out. But that being within my body was just such an amazing experience as well. And so I think that being within our mind, and also maybe body, soul, spirit, all of that, and it's uncomfortable.  Or at least for me, it's uncomfortable to get into those spaces. And yet, this is the essence of being with my breath. And my body in that moment just feels so grounding and valuable and needed.

Kristina Kaiser  12:06

Yes. And even as you're talking about that, I think of what it takes because it is so difficult for us to be with as opposed to do for.  I often succeed better when I do it in communities. So I like to be on a retreat, where others are doing it to help me stick with it a little longer. Like we have a 20 minute centering intro to centering prayer on our YouTube page for the center. And I've just found it easier to do 20 minutes with other people. Versus if I'm at home, those lists get really intense in my head and it starts to feel like, Ah, you should probably wrap this up and get moving. And I often intentionally put myself with others because I will settle in and be with them as much as I am with Divine Presence, right? It's like this whole interconnected experience, which really helps me engage it as does the senses. I have to say, if I can really stop and be like, What do I hear? What do I see? What do I feel helps me slow down?

Christina Roberts  13:15

Another thing that comes up for me is being with whatever the emotion is that I'm experiencing at that time.  Not buffering it, not running away from it, not trying to distract myself from it, which is again, normal.  Reach for the phone, reach for Netflix, reach for the candy bar, whatever it is to distract me from that, but really sitting with that and allowing, and being curious about that. And what does this have to teach me? And sometimes it again, will pass through quickly and other times is there something there that warrants your point, Kristina maybe sharing this with another person, I'm sitting with this. So even in the car yesterday there's this song that I've been listening to on repeat over and over again, that there's something in this that I want to be with the lyrics and the song. I want to be with the artists that sing this and allow myself that space to to take up more space in the “being with”. I think sometimes too, even in our practices. If I do the “20 minutes of centering prayer”.  If I do this, and that can become its own thing as well as opposed to it being with. Again, whatever we do, we can end up in the productivity end of things.

Kristina Kaiser  14:21

I think that is such a helpful point, right? Like, we can take beautiful practices that were originally helpful to us and then they can just wind up in that same spot. So that is a really helpful thing to point out.

Chris Roberts  14:33

Thank you so much for exploring this topic with us today. And we really appreciate all those that are listening

And now is the part of the podcast where we talk about what we are into this week.

Kristina Kaiser  14:56

I hope I haven't said this recently, but we've been making homemade granola.  So it still is all of my world but it's  getting to the point now where I have specificities. This amount of time it should stay in.  It was like a different way to enjoy oatmeal and it still has that aroma. So you guys granola is all the rage still. 

Christina Roberts  15:31

I am into a renewed love for smoothies. There is a YouTuber Autumn Bates, she's a nutritionist and she's all about smoothies and I am upping my smoothie game. It's no longer just fruit and yogurt. She has introduced me to all these different things like the chia seeds and the hemp seeds and bee pollen and just all this fun stuff to add into smoothies and I've been experimenting quite a bit. Some days are like oh my gosh, this is amazing. Other days it's okay. But I'm perfecting my smoothie game. So that's what I am into lately.

Chris Roberts  16:00

These are both wonderful things that I like being into as well. I think that I am into rollerball pins. I have been accused of being a pen snob and I liked certain pens. But I branched out and I got this new rollerball pen. It is a pilot precise D seven and I just find that it writes so smoothly. So this pen snob has branched out a different brand. But I had been into the pilot precisely seven rollerball pens. 

Thanks so much for joining us. It was wonderful being with you on the podcast today. I hope this conversation leads to more engagement in your lives.

Dominic Kaiser16:45

If you enjoy listening to the podcast, we invite you to stay connected by signing up for our Foundry Spiritual Center newsletter where you can learn about even more programs and offerings. You'll find a link to subscribe in the show notes or visit us anytime at foundrysc.com. Thanks again for being with us. We hope you have a great week.