Ep 90 Spirituality and Trauma

Today we are joined by Claudia Greco who speaks to us about the intersection between spirituality and trauma. Oftentimes, it feels hard to be present to what goes on in the world. We struggle to know who to talk to about our experiences and feelings. But what we know is, with trauma, we often experience life as feeling fractured, as if we have a before and an after. Claudia offers us hope today for reconnecting our bodies, minds, and spirits. Join us as we explore our need for grounding and internal safety. 

Additional Resources:
Book: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
Book: The Body Never Lies by Alice Miller 

#Trauma #Veterans #ChildhoodTrauma #Yoga #Reiki #SpiritualGuidance #SpiritualDirection #BodyAwareness #12Step #Counseling

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

trauma, emotions, addiction

Dominic Kaiser  00:06
Welcome to The Contemplative Life. Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. 

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Christina Roberts  00:25

Hello, it's great to be with you. today. We are grateful to have Claudia Greco joining us on the podcast. Claudia is local here to Madison, Wisconsin and offers Reiki, yoga, and spiritual guidance. And as her practice has unfolded, she has found herself in spaces of trauma, which has been very interesting. And we'll unpack a little bit today. So, Claudia, thanks for joining us, and welcome to the podcast.

 Claudia Greco 00:49

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Christina Roberts  00:52

So I wonder if we can start off just by you telling us a little bit more about who you are and the work you do as a spiritual guide? 

Claudia Greco 00:59

So it sort of came to me in an organic kind of fashion. I grew up in a rather rigidly Catholic family, which was both helpful and discouraging. And so from that I had lots of questions. And then because I don't know, it was like the 60s, I was also in the midst of the whole Vietnam War and protesting and feminism coming into being.  Then what opened in Vatican two, the sort of philosophy of the preferential option for the poor, and meaning for those without voice which included so many folks at the margins, right? So I originally wanted to be a doctor, but my parents said absolutely not. You're a woman. We're not paying for that.  The girls in our family could go to some sort of technical school, but the boys would get college. And I'm interested, of course, that never goes completely well. The girls in my family all got Masters on their own, and my brothers all got their bachelor's, but like over a 10 to15-year period. So anyway, but those were the times. And so because I couldn't have access to what I wanted to do, I went into nursing. And so I ended up in a Benedictine School of Nursing, which added an element at the time to have entrance into what I would say is liberation theology. And from that feminist theology, and so from there.  I entered into my practice of nursing and came to Madison, because it was the first time in history that Minnesota had an overabundance of nurses. And when I got to Madison, I worked in Psych. And I've had numerous experiences of being present to people in great life stresses, right. So I continued in my practice, and then as I was working in addiction. I went to work with more counseling. So the beginning was I sort of looked at it now as the integration of the body, mind and spirit. And so in that flow, I got to integrate those pieces that I came to witness, which has been both phenomenal, and have had incredible teachers, everyday people who have served in this way, and yet very hard to be witnessing and present to what goes on in the world in a way that a lot of people can avoid. 

Christina Roberts  03:34

Claudia, I also just want to recognize on the podcast, we are going to be talking about trauma. And we're limited with a podcast. We recognize that trauma has a lot of layers to it, there's nuances, there's depth. And there's different types of trauma, right? There's acute trauma, there's chronic trauma, there's complex. And so recognizing the limitations of our conversation today in the container of a podcast, I do want to hear more about the intersection of trauma and spirituality and some of the work that you're doing. I'd love to touch on that.

Claudia Greco 04:06

In my learning over time, I began to see this way in which trauma separates. So it almost became like a situation where something happens, and it creates a fracture in a person's life. So it becomes as though something major has shifted, and there's no longer a coherent flow. There's now a before and after. And when that happens, it also perpetuates this disconnect internally and in the world in ways that I started to see were already going on which kind of surprised me.  But also the need for that deepening reconnection to the spirit, to re inhabiting the body in a way that could prove by grounding and more safety internally, and a way to come into the beliefs that really serve so as I guess, a big sort of experience.

Kristina Kaiser  05:13

It’s interesting if I take this little piece that you were just mentioning and think back to your opening story about, I ended up at a Benedictine college for nursing. A lot of that is just work, right? Filling the container was my identity. But spirituality is a big piece, right? You're naming mind body spirit, and you're doing yoga and Reiki and spiritual guidance. How did spirituality become? Was it always a focus? Did it become a focus? How did that play out? 

Claudia Greco 05:46

Well, it was probably always a bit of a focus. So I remember one of the ways that showed up and I was thinking about this this morning, because I knew we were going to be talking.  When I did my psych training, we went to a VA, and in this VA, it was, again, the Vietnam War. So there were veterans just fresh off the battlefield, who are being treated for post-traumatic stress. And I remember learning and questioning it, which the psychiatrist who spoke to us said, basically, that only men who had other underlying issues would have trauma through war. And I thought, well, that sounds pretty crazy to me, like war could be, you know, pretty devastating, right? And then I was with men in this, mostly men, there were some women. But you know, my first really incredible teacher was this man who literally was so depressed, he could not speak. He was so traumatized by his experience. And so I was supposed to write up all these interactions, but he had no voice. So I had to begin to pay such close attention to how he moved the covers on his bed, because he wouldn't get out of bed. So I would sit and we were assigned one person for the whole four months. And I was like, how am I going to do that, right?  But I would sit at his bed, and notice the little observances that clued me into who he was. And in a way, it was like learning the spirituality of meditation practice, because we were in the quiet, and the quiet can be pretty painful for people. So that was an introduction. And then as I went on in school, I thought it would work with children, because I ended up on peds, and children who were traumatized physically, emotionally, I mean, there was just such a strong sense of my wanting to be present to them. And so that was my original thought. 

But by the end of my three years, because it was a diploma program, I ended up in an addiction unit. So Minnesota was a pioneer in addiction treatment. So very first treatment center there for addiction in the States, and well versed in that. And I found, with people who are being treated for all kinds of addiction, was this spiritual conversion happening again, and again, in terms of because they followed a 12 step program. And that's based on spirituality. So from there, I was led, I think, because you know, a lot of places you weren't supposed to talk about God, you weren't supposed to talk about spirituality, even in a Catholic hospital, which was, it was a trauma center. So they had to be very careful. But that became sort of my focus then because I wanted to explore that all along, and use it in conjunction with the fullness of our lives, right. 

Chris Roberts  08:37

I love that you're talking about a holistic way of helping people integrate in their own lives and to spirituality. And I think one of the things that you said with hearing people's stories, like it can be hard, like there are a lot of horror stories. And I think a term that I've heard before is second hand trauma, where you're taking on some of the story.  What have been some beneficial practices for you?  How you process, let it go through you, but not become overwhelmed?  What have been some helpful keys for you in dealing with these horror stories?

Claudia Greco 09:19

Right. So sometimes this is also called vicarious trauma, right being present so much. And I mean, I think this is what we see happening because of so many people not wanting to show up right to be present to it is very hard. And so in Judith Herman's work on trauma and recovery, one of the things she's addressing is how trauma survivors view bystanders and perpetrators.  And they almost are more disturbed by the bystanders. They understand that the perpetration has occurred and they can know that.  But to watch people turn away is what was the hardest and I somehow knew that intuitively. And so it wasn't so much for me about not being overwhelmed, but allowing, and I sort of looked to the Spirit for this, right? This is where the Spirit really assists me. If I was going to be overwhelmed, then okay, let me be overwhelmed and come to know what that is. Because if I come to know what that is, over time, my guess was that there'll be a way through. And I will be provided for. I mean, it was sort of a faith in that possibility. And I was, so it kept showing up.   I'll share another incident. So this was unfortunate in my nursing school.  I was dealing with a woman who'd had this horrible, horrendous car accident, and the doctor was debating her wounds, and I was assisting at the time. I was, I think, in my second year in nursing school. And she was in such pain, it was so hard to witness and yet I could not leave the room, right. I felt like I was gonna throw up at first, but I managed and then I was the one who had to clean up. So when she was settled, I took all the dirty linen and I went into the dirty utility room in the hospital. And I brought it in there. And I started to tear up. I became tearful about this, and it's part of the way that I think it moves through me, is to allow for these tears.  To acknowledge what has just happened, right? And I turned around, and my instructor was there, and she started screaming at me. And she said, What do you think you're doing? You'll never make it here, if you're going to start crying. And I was immediately stunned. And one of the beauties of that experience was that one of the things that nursing school did was they provided for counseling, and you could be referred, so she referred me to this counselor.  Well, now I thought they were going to drop me and I thought my parents were gonna kill me because I would have to drop out of school and I was doing them poorly. Anyway, I get it, I started preparing for this counseling session. It was through Catholic Charities, they donated the time and stuff. So it was nice. But I get into that counseling office, and I tell this man who was incredible, this story about what has just happened.  And I'm trying to apologize for my behavior, right, or for even being emotional. And he says, Finally, he says, you know, this is not a problem. And this is not your problem. But I want you to know that it's going to come up again and again here. And so you want to be prepared, because emotionality is not going to be accepted. And that was another beginning for me to kind of incorporate the relevance of emotion in a way that could serve. And he would support me through that process. So it's an interesting dichotomy in the culture. And we know this right? Emotions are more feminine, and they are regarded as not rational and therefore not useful often, when, in fact, there is the provision in my experience of the message of the Divine somehow.  So any basic emotion can lead us through to finding what it is that's being spoken to us in that sort of way of integration that you spoke to the integration is a perfect word that I like.

Kristina Kaiser  13:24

I really appreciate all that you're naming. Oh, my goodness. So I feel like so far I've heard in terms of how do I deal with these emotions in these experiences? I've heard naming, noticing, allowing the tears to come. Is there more? I mean, as you have mentioned before, like with trauma, often there's an up to the point where the event happens, and then the after. And I definitely know people like that there was the moment in which they were burned badly, and then everything that came thereafter. So is there more that we can do when it comes to working through the trauma? I don't know, I'm sure you've heard of The Body Keeps The Score, right?  This notion of what we don't release gets trapped.

Claudia Greco 14:07

Actually, what's interesting about that is in Alice Miller, I don't know if you know her, but she was the first one to really speak to this. She has a book, it's more clinical, but her book is titled, The Body Never Lies. And so it's a really a strong kind of reversal away from the dualism of separation, which, again, trauma creates and into this idea that if you can learn to listen to the body's cueing the body knows more than the mind. The mind can take us to places that are all sorts of untruths. But if you learn how to be within your body and learn the diversity of experiences about how your body speaks to you, then you're given what is needed.  I think that's the bottom line. The other practice that I began to use because, well, it came through primarily in yoga teachings. And that is how to begin to witness your own experience first. And for me, it occurred first with the outside world and gets back to what Chris was talking about, which is how to bear witness to what is going on, to show up in the times that are difficult, as much as we can. And then that was the teaching to begin to witness the self and bear witness there. And trauma, of course, often happens without a witness, a lot of different traumas. And so when you don't have that experience, and then you enter a world where not many people really want to talk about it. That's why this podcast is so amazing to me. I'm like, wow, somebody really wants to talk?  I mean, most of the time, most of the people I saw would say, There's no one I can speak to. And it is oftentimes unspeakable. I mean, who really wants to know how bad you can be for people? And yet, it's the truth, right? So in the search for truth, which for me is partly the spirit, right? I want the truth more than I want comfort, let's say or something. I don't know if that answers your question?

So being a witness to this taught me how to ultimately witness to myself, and to be present to things that happen to me from a place of just a step away, not dissociation, though, because that's part of trauma, or trance states.  But to be present to it in a way that I could see into the past, in the future, into the future and present to what was right now. Sometimes we would ask these questions, because trauma shows up usually as an excess charge event, like you get over done by I'm hearing. Okay, so for instance, you get overridden by hearing sounds like they're mowing my grass. And I'm like, Yeah, but usually, if you're not traumatized, you're not going to be that over done. And so you begin to look at how this is in the present. This is partly from my past. Is there a memory coming through?  Trauma memory is stored in a different place. So it's implicit, and it means that oftentimes sensation will open, it is the call to opening that door. So being present, even through small things, they're not really that small, but those things that there's a charge for you for some reason. Then entering into and exploring that in a way.  It's sort of like this other yoga thought that I was given a long time ago to remember that your emotions and thoughts are like the clouds passing, but you're the sky. And to me, that's the spirit at the base, right?  The ground of my being Paul Tillich says.  Spirit at the base, if I can remember that, then I can witness some of these other things. And it was interesting, too, because all the women that came to me to do the trauma work.  It wasn't like I sought this out. And in fact, I would try to discourage them, because it's very hard work. But they had all been through therapy. And I sent them back to therapy, because I was now doing spiritual guidance work. And they said, No, we want to be more spiritual. So I was quite enthused by that. And so in a sense, we discovered this together in a very mutual kind of way that I knew might be possible, but I didn't know would be so nourishing.

Christina Roberts  18:40

Yeah, and it's beautiful. Claudia, I appreciate you lifting up the elements of body mind spirit coming together. And mentioning earlier about, there's no words and noticing the shifting of the sheets and holding that beautiful space. And recognizing that folks that listen to the podcasts may be on the end of holding space for others. And then there's some of us that also have our own trauma that we're beginning to get in touch with. And so I wonder if you have any closing comments or resources or remarks for those that maybe are listening and maybe feel an invitation to pay attention to trauma with a witness of another? What might you say to those people?

Claudia Greco 19:16

I often quote Simone Bay, if you know her.  She is an activist, a French activist who found Jesus and really never became Christian, per se, but really lived out of principles. But one of the things she says is “Paying attention is the purest form of prayer.”  And so I think about that, and I think about another one of her quotes is, “We need to balance gravity and grace, so that we can be what we do”. So those things and then her other quote is, “If someone does me an injury, I must not let it degrade me.”  And I must do this in honor of him who does the injury or else .. No, no, that's the paraphrasing of it. It's like, paying attention is the very first step. And then there's so many resources out there, I caution people, but you know, to choose one thing, to honor yourself to choose the thing that you are drawn to.  Online they are having summits on trauma. Now there's so much available, and then maybe find somebody, if you haven't done therapy, therapy would be a good resource to start with, or reading something that occurs to you that is helpful. So there's different literature about it now.  And I'm hesitant to recommend specifics, because people are their diversity of experiences such that there's no one thing that touches them all of course.

Christina Roberts  20:52

Yeah, and I appreciate you saying that, because I do think for some, maybe on the yoga mat, for others, that may be a book for others that may be nature. And so I think that that's important. 

Claudia Greco 21:02

Prayer, or yeah, whatever. Yeah. And there's the mystics, I think, are significant, because there's this issue with time and trauma.  There's intricacies of time that you become aware of, and in mysticism, it opens time.  You always have enough time. And in trauma, it's like that can happen as a recourse. Just by paying attention, you can open time to integrate this whole experience that gives you much more fullness in life. But it's not an easy one to go to. 

Christina Roberts  21:37

 Well, given the fact that again, trauma, such a big, beautiful, amazing, layered topic, and that we've again, kind of reduced it to this podcast, I just really appreciate the perspectives and the wisdom that you've offered today. So thank you so much for joining us today, Claudia.

Claudia Greco 21:51

Thank you for having me. It's nice to see you all.

Chris Roberts  21:54

It was awesome. Thank you.

Christina Roberts  22:02

Well, this is the part of our podcast where we talk about what we are into this week. So what are we into friends? 

Kristina Kaiser  22:09

Well, it's the beginning of the school year, which has meant looking again towards creative lunch solutions, which has gotten me back into making granola.  I have been pulling out all the ingredients and throwing granola in while we do dishes, and then you have this amazing tastiness that can go in lunches or snacks or whatever it is. I'm very energized about granola these days.

Christina Roberts  22:32

Okay, I love that.  Our daughter just made granola last weekend and it was delightful,  so it must be in the air. To go along with that fall theme I am into pumpkins. All things pumpkin.   I have on the calendar when our pumpkin carving weekend is going to be. I just bought a big case of canned pumpkins for all the pumpkin bread and cooking and baking. So I am embracing all things pumpkin.

Chris Roberts  22:55

Well I continue with the food thing that we're into, I guess it's okay that we're all into food and probably our listeners are into food because it's something that we have to do on a daily basis. But I have been into salads, a lot more than normal, maybe even having two salads a day instead of the typical one salad a day. And I have been into the textures in salad. So adding a little bit of crunch so I'll add a cashew to the salad. I'll add maybe some Parmesan whisps that are crunchy or some sesame seeds or pumpkin seeds. And there are all kinds of fun dressings that my loving wife provides that are healthy. They don't have all the sugars that a lot of dressings have. But ginger sesame dressing is my favorite right now. And so I am into all the fondness that a healthy salad can offer. 

Christina Roberts  23:55

Love it, celebrating food together. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Until next time, make it a great week. 

Dominic Kaiser 24:02

If you enjoy listening to the podcast, we invite you to stay connected by signing up for our Foundry Spiritual Center newsletter where you can learn about even more programs and offerings. You'll find a link to subscribe in the show notes or visit us anytime at Foundrysc.com. Thanks again for being with us. We hope you have a great week.