Ep 79 Brain Chemicals + the Contemplative

Today, we’re talking about the benefits of our contemplative practices as it relates to the brain. It turns out there are four main brain chemicals playing a role in how we experience happiness and wellness in our lives. But no two people are exactly alike. What helps one may not at all be helpful for another. Join us as we talk about what we’re learning in regards to our motivations and anchors.  

Additional Resources:

Movie: What about Bob

#BrainChemicals
#IntermittentFasting
#Mindfulness
#SeasonalDepression 

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Transcript

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. 

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Christina Roberts  00:25

Hello, it is great to be with you. Today we are talking about the intersection of brain chemicals and contemplative life.  I personally find it fascinating that God designed us with different sorts of brain chemicals. And a couple of years ago, I started geeking out on learning more information about all the different brain chemicals that we have.  Over the years, I've certainly heard of various brain chemicals here and there but just clumped them all together.  However, taking time to learn about each one and really understanding what they do and how they function in us has helped me to understand ways that the contemplative life can help us gain these chemicals in some healthy and sustainable ways. 

And so as a quick overview, I'm going to just name the four chemicals, and then we'll go through each one and talk about them more in depth. So I like to use the word dose as a reminder, so d for dopamine, o for oxytocin, S for serotonin, and E for endorphins. So let's circle back around and talk about the first one, dopamine. For those that aren't familiar with dopamine, our brain produces dopamine when we accomplish a goal, or we have some sort of an achievement.  When we feel that satisfaction, dopamine is what helps us to stay motivated with rewards of new experiences. So then, on the flip side, when we don't have dopamine or when our dopamine is low, we tend to lack motivation to pursue new things to accomplish goals. And even though we might enjoy the end results, we don't really have the desire to pursue that further. So I wonder for the two of you, how have you seen dopamine or lack of dopamine show up in your life? And are there are there some ways that the contemplative has helped you? 

Kristina Kaiser  02:11

I think it is generally true that I can use dopamine all day long. It's like a strength of mine to have goals or lists or various things. And I use apps that do it too. So you can be headed towards a goal on an app and you can mark your daily progress, and it'll show you graphs and I use them. I have friends that will say that's so much work. I don't want to track myself that much.   I love it. I feel like in that sense, I'm probably a dopamine junkie without even knowing it. Right? Then the other little things like mowing the lawn and seeing the lines from where you mowed that is so rewarding to me, I will look out the window and just marvel. So yes, definitely. I love it.

Christina Roberts  03:05

Kristina, I think it's interesting that you pointed out and I just want to name this too. I think with the dose, oftentimes, we do have one or two that are pretty high and maybe more organic for us, and other ones that we have to nourish a little bit more. So that's interesting that you're naming that dopamine comes very naturally to you. And it sounds like you find it in all different ways all throughout the day. So thanks for sharing that.

Chris Roberts  03:24

I think I might be the opposite. Dopamine, I don't get a whole lot from it. In fact, I talked to several people, and they're like, Oh, don't you love checking off a list? And I said, Actually, I don't love it at all. I would rather get a project done. I have some sense of gratification.  I just installed a dryer. I mean, I have some sense of accomplishment. But dopamine really doesn't do much for me. So it's interesting how we're all made and wired.

Kristina Kaiser  04:00

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because my husband said the exact same thing. He was like checking off lists, I'd rather not have a list. And so there is that. I mean, I also know people who do lists even better than me, right? So there's definitely a gamut. But I love it. That's so interesting.

Christina Roberts  04:17

I think that's a great segue into the second chemical, which is oxytocin.  We release oxytocin when we feel safe and bonded with others. So sometimes it's nicknamed a love hormone, a connection hormone. It shows up when we feel connected to either people or to animals. And so maybe this is one that's higher for you, Chris. I don't know if you have some comments about oxytocin.

Chris Roberts  04:39

I can riff on oxytocin all day long. In fact, you know, I haven't had a good day until I've met somebody new or connected to somebody new and so I really connect with oxytocin. Whenever I do things with people, I noticed when I'm doing a project with people there is much more reward from that experience than the actual getting something done by itself. If I'm with a person doing something and we're chatting, that is a great reward for me. So I really resonate with this idea of oxytocin being a chemical that feeds me in a positive way.

Kristina Kaiser  05:22

I also really relate to oxytocin.  But I think it's worth noting, if I think back to my dopamine issue, one of the unhealthy expressions of dopamine is workaholic. And it is very easy for me to get in an over focused, tunnel vision world. And so that contemplative practice, even of putting the hand over the heart, these are really meaningful ways for me to settle and move to that different space and start to release that oxytocin.  You would not think, but I work from home, my husband works from home, it's very easy for us to find a point of connection, we have a really snuggly dog or cat. The dog is very snugly, so there are lots of opportunities for it even in the house.  I love these little moments where I get to connect with other people in my day, even if I'm feeling a little bit like under the weather, I can feel better just by getting out and kind of being around people. So yeah, I'm with you.

Christina Roberts  06:26

Chris, I find it interesting to you naming that with a dopamine when it's connected with oxytocin, when you're doing a project with somebody else.  I think sometimes our awareness of these are particular brain chemicals that are more natural to us. But we do need all four, God designed us to need and to experience all four of them. So it's an interesting kind of noticing when these two are coupled together, then I can experience dopamine, but by itself, it's not very motivating or appealing, or a natural thing. So that's an interesting observation that you have. 

Well, next in the dose is serotonin. And we produce serotonin, when we feel respected and valued by others, we can find security in our social importance, and serotonin is released. Also, interestingly enough, 80% of serotonin lives in our gut. And so when we are having healthy guts, and being out in sunshine, things like that. So serotonin is kind of very deep, deep within us kind of that gut level of feeling loved, valued, respected, etc. So, as we think about serotonin, what comes up for you guys?

Chris Roberts  07:29

Well, it's interesting that you mentioned being out in the sun being outside being connected to others, this summer has been a summer at the pool with my kids. And so I'm outdoors, I'm playing in the pool with my kids. And there's this ability to, after I play with them for a while, to sit in a chair and relax. And all the stress just kind of went out of me. And that is how I've been experiencing serotonin recently.

Kristina Kaiser  08:05

I find it interesting, the connection between the gut and the serotonin levels in the gut. We said these are brain chemicals, right? And it's kind of a big deal, because I was recently talking with somebody that was having some digestive issues and they asked about how their mental health was going?  How is anxiety and things like this?  And apparently there are these links with not feeling well in the gut, and experiencing anxiety or other struggle. Then in yet a different conversation I was having, they were talking about the importance of mirroring. So this kind of affirmation, somebody reflecting, we get our self esteem a lot from people reflecting back to us. And so they're actually saying, usually in adulthood, people have a better time of this than they do in their teens. It's more difficult for people to figure out who they are. But yeah, those words of affirmation, that sense of belonging, and I feel it in my own life.  If I've done a bunch of work, and we just keep going, we just keep ticker taping without any pause to say, was it good or bad? I can start to think it must be bad, because nobody said it was good. And so that sense of Yep, gotta keep the serotonin level up. 

Christina Roberts  09:26

Yeah, it's interesting that you're both kind of naming the importance of a pause right? So Chris, you're connecting with others at the pool, but then you are taking a pause and a break to sit in the sun and to be. Kristina you are doing the dopamine again, but pausing to take that in on a deep level, that reflective space to let it soak in. So yeah, I think that's really interesting that you're both naming that. And then of course, too, we often talk about the importance of body, mind, spirit connections. And again, naming that the gut and the brain, there is connection and that really matters and is important. 

And then finally, the endorphins. We produce endorphins when our body needs to protect us from feeling pain. So it motivates us to ignore pain in order to move forward. And so there's sort of these classic examples of avoiding danger. The mom lifts the car to save the baby, this rush of endorphins type of a thing. But also, we have endorphins released when we exercise, when we're moving, when we're laughing. So it doesn't have to be the extreme of danger. But these things where life is stressful and endorphins are released to help us to avoid.  If we had to experience all the negative emotions in a given day, I don't think we could function right? So endorphins are there to help us to manage those sorts of things. So I wonder what comes up for the two of you along those lines?

Kristina Kaiser  10:48

Yeah, the exercise feels like Oh, sure, right. We go out, we take a walk, or in my case, you get up first thing you do your workout. But I think the majority of my endorphins, I think I run through my exercise endorphins, kind of quickly, to be honest, I don't know why. But if it's the first thing in the morning, I don't know what the problem is. But they do not serve the whole day of happiness. I think ironically, it's when I have a bunch of things that need to get done. That is a light up maneuver, I think I go into that, like, Oh, you gotta hit safety mode and all these endorphins start rolling. So having a really difficult thing is like, Okay, let's do this. I don't post much on social media but sometimes the memories come back from when I used to post more. And it'll be like, I've got three events and a parade to avoid, because they always take up the middle of the most important street, and that seems to motivate me enough that I would post about it, right? So big, lots of things to do see, just to get my juices flowing.  Alright, let's do the impossible.

Christina Roberts  11:58

That's interesting. I feel like I'm the opposite. For me, one of my spiritual practices of releasing stress from the day or hard stories is walking. And so sometimes I'll even take a midday walk, if there's a lot that I need to kind of work out in my body. So that's interesting. I would say that's the opposite for me of exercise and movement really being a release for me.

Chris Roberts  12:16

Yeah, I think when I think about endorphins, or what is most memorable to me is experiences in our life that have been super challenging and super tough. And, you know, Christina Roberts, and I have this practice at the end of the day of reflecting back on the day. And there have been memorable moments where we're talking about just incredibly challenging situations. And I'll say something super sarcastic about an experience. And Christina will start laughing, you know, like, gut laughing, and I'll start laughing with her. And I find that as I go to bed and I wake up the next day, there was this release, like that tension that that gut wrenching, challenging situation that we were that we were talking about, has just sort of dissipated. And so I've experienced it through laughter. I've also experienced it, you know, Kristina, Kaiser, me and Dominique, were talking recently about food, and eating food and, and noises that people make.  We were referencing, What About Bob,  this is a movie, and I think, maybe the early, late 80s, early 90s, where this guy is just enjoying his food, and just like, Mm hmm. And I really love to see people enjoying food, and it makes me mindful to enjoy my food as well. And not just to rush through, but to really enjoy it.  That can be a way to just sort of release instead of like, I just gotta get it down. And I got to go about my day, like taking that pause to eat, let it let yourself enjoy it. And so that's another thing that comes up for me with endorphins.

Christina Roberts  14:17

One of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this today on the podcast is because I think if we aren't aware of how our brain chemicals work, what can happen is we can either go into too much or too little, right? So we can deprive ourselves of pleasures all day long and then at the end of the day, we want to reward ourselves because we've plowed through and gone through and we want the binge watching or eating food that we're not even hungry for or excessive drinking or things like that. And not that any of those things are bad in and of itself. But that's very different from throughout the day, having those moments of pleasure and brain chemicals being released and weaving it into our day so that at the end of the day, we're not completely depleted.  Of course, you know, on the opposite side, we can overdo it. I think, Kristina, you mentioned earlier with dopamine workaholism. And I think with all of these, there's the temptation to fall into peer pressure, right? Like we want to connect. But then there's peer pressure and keeping up with the Joneses can be sort of an unhealthy expression of oxytocin.  Or comparing ourselves being over competitive at the expense of others can be unhealthy expressions. Again, numbing, addictive behaviors, things like that. So I wonder how that showed up with you both this idea of throughout the day, as opposed to having too little or too much of of this and then going into excess,

Kristina Kaiser  15:39

I think it's more like the seasons of life. So there was a season where I became just so very tired and so that motivation went way down, I started eating tons more junk food, it was just a more stressful time. I was sleeping more. And it took a few months to kind of reset and these little changes that we're talking about in the day, like savoring a meal, savoring the person that you're eating with, getting back on a routine of some kind, allowing myself to have a meaningful schedule. But it was a season, it took a few months actually to turn it around, because I was just so worn out. 

Chris Roberts  16:27

I think where I've seen the overuse of these, in my life. I'm an Enneagram seven, and one of our chief tenants is to avoid pain at all costs. And so whenever I think about being happy, I think about food or beverages. And so before I found out about dose, I was already being mindful and aware. And so one of the practices that I instituted was intermittent fasting, and giving my body a break. And I think that made me mindful in another way. But whenever I found out about dose, it's like, well, what about the rest of the day?  While enjoying your food, and then being mindful of whenever you think about being happy, you think about food, or you think about beverages? How do you just say, Okay, this is what I need for now. And that that's enough. So excess is probably where I've noticed that and in my life around, you know, the avoidance of pain, or, you know, just not being a mindful person.

Christina Roberts  17:37

I appreciate you naming that. Sometimes we do have seasons where there's a particular lowness. We all live in the northern part of the United States, and it gets really cold and really dark. And so seasonal depression is a huge thing that we are all navigating in the northern part of this country. And so sometimes, there is the need for medication seasonally, or, of course, with the dose, none of us here are professional psychiatrists, psychologists, but there are times when professionals recognize, hey, these levels are so low that we do need some medication to help with that. So I don't want to ignore that. And certainly want to make mention of that. I think what we're talking about is, when we all kind of have those functional levels of what are some things and ways to contemplate can help us to engage even deeper and to really take some of these things in. So I want to make sure that we're mentioning that as well.

Kristina Kaiser  18:28

Yeah, and I have to say, you, because I've done a lot of research on joy and how joy shows up in our lives. And, then I've looked at my own life, because I have so many of these little things that people suggest already going on, including pops of color, and fun moments, like shapes. So there's so many little things that they talked about that bring joy. But there's a difference, I think between this kind of profound, lasting joy, this moment to moment happiness.  You have a moment of happiness and that serves you to some extent, but you can know on the inside that you feel profoundly anxious or profoundly worried or profoundly afraid. And I have found personally that I really need my meditation and prayer practice. Like I need to get to that still space, where I can live into a real trust of,  you are safe, you are protected. You are okay to get that true level of contentment. These little like things, they're fine, they help but they help in a smaller percentage to me than my meditation and prayer practice.

Christina Roberts  19:40

And I think that's important to name that we probably all have different anchor practices in our lives or anchor things that we do that really nourish these different brain chemicals in our lives. So again, for me, I would say an anchor is my walking and if I don't get a walk in, I notice that and that really affects me.  For you, it's meditation and I think maybe for you, Chris, it's savoring. I don't want to speak for you But I think that's important to name that we do probably have these anchor ones. Or perhaps we're learning and becoming aware. And this is an invitation to notice. Oh, wow, like I do notice as I'm listening to this podcast, some of the letters pop for me like, Yep, I certainly relate to that and that comes easy. And these other letters aren't popping. And so maybe that's an invitation to bring that into consideration. Okay, are there some things that I can do adding in pops of color or, different connection points or adopting a pet things like that that can help? 

Well, thanks for a generative conversation, I have appreciated learning more about dose together with the two of you.

And on that note, this is the part of our podcast where we talk about what we're into this week. So what are we into?

Kristina Kaiser  20:46

So we planted strawberries last year, and they did almost nothing. And then this year, they really produced and then they got really bushy, and we realized like, Ooh, there's all these runners that are growing. And the runners are these little remarkable things. They come out and they form a route and they plant themselves. So we had a ton of these things, which we have now pulled out so that we can get back in the rows. And I'm pretty sure we now have the ability to plant new strawberry plants off of these old ones. And so we have some big plans to put in more strawberries along the house and enjoy the fruits of it throughout the summer. So that is what I’m into.

Christina Roberts  21:27

Well, I am into different types of art. And so we just recently here in Madison had the art fair on the square, which is where they shut down the downtown area and all the different local art vendors set up. And it was fascinating.  I think that I picture an art fair, you kind of have these different types of art that you're imagining, but there were so many creative expressions of art all along the downtown square.  There was one booth that was a real highlight for us where they took vinyl records and they reshaped the vinyl into these really cool photos and pictures of these different bands with the different vinyls of that band and just super creative.  Like jewelry, pottery, woodworking lights. So I am into different expressions of art.

Chris Roberts  22:12

Well, I have been into sunsets, and not just the sun setting, and the beautiful vibrant colors that happen at night. But also the lightning bugs. I think they're coming around a little bit later in the year. Usually they come around or June, but it is July right now and they are just popping the night with this green fluorescent color. And so I find myself waiting for sunset and making sure that I'm outdoors a little bit or by a window or having art. We have a huge bay window and just watch the different insects popping and the sun and the color. So I've been into sunsets.

Christina Roberts  23:00

Yeah, maybe if I can add to that we have a Korean exchange student staying with us and he's never seen fireflies before. So about a week ago was his first experience ever in his life seeing a firefly. So really fun to see that and to reminisce as a kid catching fireflies. So great thing to be into. 

Well, thanks so much for joining us today on the podcast. We look forward to seeing you again next time. Make it a great week.

Dominic Kaiser  23:22

If you enjoy listening to the podcast, we invite you to stay connected by signing up for our foundry spiritual center newsletter where you can learn about even more programs and offerings. You'll find a link to subscribe in the show notes or visit us anytime at Foundrysc.com. Thanks again for being with us. We hope you have a great week.