Ep 72 Aging and the Contemplative

Many of us have hopes for what life will look like as we age. The question is: What will it take for us to live well, and even thrive, in our later years? It turns out that those who are in that stage of life often have helpful words of advice – lived experience that we can soak up and benefit from. Join us as we muse about our own aging experiences and take time to embrace the words of wisdom that are coming from the sages who have crossed our paths.  

Additional Resources
Book: Falling Upward by Richard Rohr
TV Series: Lark Rise to Candleford 

#LifelongLearner
#Reinvention
#AgingWell
#Thrive 

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
aging, reinvention, spaciousness

Dominic Kaiser  00:06
Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. 

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.  

Kristina Kaiser
Hello, it's great to be with you. Today, we are taking some time to talk about how a contemplative life can become a great help to us, actually, as we age. And you know, generally speaking, we all sort of know that we tend to live longer these days. And that's given us maybe a little extra incentive to eat well, or exercise regularly, or put extra money away for retirement. But in reality, it's not only these things. When sociologists talk about what thriving looks like as we age, they talk about other sorts of things like having good relationships, or even being able to make new relationships or being able to forgive and let go of bitterness, these types of things. We've also sort of discovered that the people most concerned about aging tend to be those in middle age. So it's kind of worth noting that here on this podcast, all of us are middle aged, we're not experts on aging. But maybe we are the types of people that tend to be most concerned about aging. And so maybe it's worth talking about, at this particular stage in life, maybe it's the perfect time to talk about how the contemplative relates to aging. And so maybe we'll just start there, when it comes to aging, what comes up? What do you think about? 

Christina Roberts  01:45

I find it interesting that you're noting that it's those in middle age that tend to think about aging more than those that are maybe already down the line a little bit further. And it comes to mind that a lot of people, I think, often seek out spiritual direction and spiritual companionship in kind of late 30s, maybe early 40s type of situations. And so I wonder if there's just something in us where there's something about those numbers in our particular culture and society that makes us think, Oh, we're, sort of in the second half of life or transitioning to that, what does that mean? So I found that little fact interesting that you brought up, Kristina. 

Kristina Kaiser  02:22

Yeah. And it sort of is in me a little bit, because you hit middle age, and you start to realize, okay, the body isn’t quite what it was.  I don't jump quite like I used to. I'm tired.  I think also just watching parents start to age over time, you start to realize, Oh, this isn't forever, right? My life is moving along and so, in a way, I find that to be something exciting about aging.  I've always said I can't wait to have a gray ponytail, and get a hot pink scrunchie to go with it so it's a nice color contrast. And to rock on the porch on my rocking chair. I have plans for a spacious life, if you will. But at the same time, I want this body to be working for me. And I think all that stuff about relationships does come into play.  As well as, how is my mental faculty? How is my emotional health as I go into those older years?

Chris Roberts  03:22

Can I just say, I'm dealing with the fact that you call me middle aged? Like, wait, oh, yeah, I am middle aged. And I think mentally we all respond differently to aging. I obviously have a desire to age well, but in my mind, I feel like you brought up body stuff. I'm out playing basketball with the kids early in the morning and I noticed those things.  Oh, I probably shouldn't have done that. I didn't stretch at first. Or those types of things come to my mind that I am aging. But I also think it's challenging being in a culture that aging seems like it's a death sentence, you know? And so we have all kinds of things that keep us young whether it's tummy tucks or whatever we have remedies for aging. And this idea of staying young and keeping wrinkles off of your body and all kinds of things like that. I think that's super important to our society. And I think “the contemplative life” helps us to reframe and reshape it. How can aging be a beautiful thing and how do we age well? I think it's a very relevant question. And I think part of it is our mindset, right? How do we look at getting older? How do we look at, Okay, now, I'm older, and the people in my life are younger? And how do I pass on some of the information that I'm learning? How do I look at the next generation, and then how do I also continue to look to those who are a little bit ahead of me? So I think contemplative is super helpful as we think about aging. 

Christina Roberts  05:29

I was recently facilitating a women's retreat, and it was multigenerational, and I appreciated hearing the 80-year-olds in the room talking to those in their 20s. And just the wisdom that they were passing along. And there's such a subtleness. Kristina, you use the word spaciousness. And I think that that's a great description of when we are aging well, we have a spaciousness in our lives, whether it's a spaciousness mentally, or being present, or even accepting that, yeah, you know, my body does have limits. And instead of fighting against that, I've accepted that and that's just part of life right now. That's part of the pace in which I am living. And so I don't know, there's something very appealing about that wise, spacious space that I think, as we age, tends to unfold for us.

Kristina Kaiser  06:14

You’re both naming people, you maybe met even briefly who are giving their wisdom, which makes me think of this. I was on a retreat one time and there was a woman, she was maybe mid 70s. And her advice to the rest of us was to have fun. And actually, again, middle age, I wonder.  I do have a fair amount of fun, but at the same time, there's a lot of responsibility. And so it actually is kind of good advice to say, oh, keep having fun, find a way for it. Last night is a perfect example. We had three things that needed to happen in the seven o'clock hour. You know, because everybody double booked one child. And so I was picking up all the kids from school and thinking this is going to be nuts. How do we do this in a way that's not super stressed? How do we just have fun? Because what happens, right, you get to the end of your age, and just life is all about the stress, that doesn't seem like something we want to live out.

Chris Roberts  07:22

Yeah, I think one of the things that I'm going back to is some things that we said about being around older people.  I recall being with an older gentleman the other day, who, all three of us have children that are still in the home, and this person, all their children, except for maybe one are off to school. And one of the things that he's saying is, “Time goes by so quickly. Enjoy the time that you have with your kids.” And you know, sometimes I think, man, I'm ready for that. I'm ready for them to be off to school, you know, because maybe my life will be more spacious. But I think he had such wisdom to pass on to us about taking advantage of the time that you have with your younger children, you're actually going to miss it. That's one of the things that he said, you're going to miss them being in the home, you're going to miss them sort of taking up space. And I really appreciate being around people that have aged and then passing on their little nuggets of wisdom to us.

Christina Roberts  08:30

Yeah. And of course, not everyone on the podcast has children or is married. And so even thinking about this idea, and we've talked about this before on the podcast, being a lifelong learner. And I think there's something appealing about that as we age.  There's opportunities to take up all different sorts of hobbies and interests, and build off of the things that we built in our first half of life. I think whenever we're reading different psychology books, or you know, Richard Rohr talks about the first half /second half of life. And the first half is often about the ascent. It's the career building and building our structures, saving money, getting the homes, all that kind of stuff, where the second half of life, I think the questions change.  We're asking more about meaning making, contribution, enjoyment to your point, Kristina. And so I find that, again, whether we're single, married with kids, etc, that ascent and descent seems to be universal that we at some level walk through.

Kristina Kaiser  09:24

Yeah. And I almost feel like if I can build the habits now, that I guess my hope is to build the habits now is to have them pay off. Right. And so I think I did not pay much attention, for instance, to mindful breathing. In my early adult life, it just didn't come up. And for one, that's kind of our culture now, so there's a lot more people talking about mindful breathing now than there was 20 years ago. But when I first started a practice of mindful breathing, I wasn't very good at it either. It was almost like I couldn’t get a good breath. It's taken years for me even to get good at breathing, much less to read. I read something not too long ago about Thich Nhat Hahn having a person ask him a difficult question. And he had to go inward and really breathe before he could even answer the question and kind of keep that steadiness about him. And then he went outside and practically hyperventilated. It took so much. But these are practices, right? And so I'm sort of hoping that practicing now and developing that over time has a long-term payoff that I can't even understand at this particular moment.

Christina Roberts  10:45

I think I've been inspired lately with this idea of reinvention. And you know, there's some different podcasts that I listened to who are maybe entering their 50s, and they're just sort of reevaluating everything. And these are people that have experienced a degree of success, education, etc. And I think with reinvention, there's this opportunity to kind of take stock of what is in our lives? And do I still want what is? And if so, I embrace that with gratitude. And it's a fresh way of looking at that. And then opportunities like, what are some things that are quite possible that I just haven't even given myself the time or space to think about, and beginning to pursue those things. And so again, that goes back to that lifelong learner. So maybe you have always desired to play the violin, but you've never done that before. And somehow with a reinvention, there's that opportunity to take up something that is new for you.  Or maybe a business pursuit or a travel pursuit, things like that. And so I think that, to me, that sounds very appealing. And the idea that we can always be reinventing ourselves, we can be in our 70s reinventing ourselves.  It's not like, Okay, it's midlife, now I have this reinvention, that's the next chunk of my life. But there's this continual renewal and reinvention that I think is available to us as we age.

Chris Roberts  11:53

Yeah, evaluating where we are now and where we would like to be. And thinking through, how do I want to get there? And also being gentle with ourselves. We're probably going to make some mistakes, in reaching our goals, or saying what we want to be like, and sometimes you just gotta try some things on.  As we think about aging, and we think about contemplative aging, sometimes it's not going to be a one size fits all.  You're gonna have to try something on a couple of different times to become who you want to be, as you age. 

Kristina Kaiser  12:34

For sure. And I was most inspired by this idea, reading about the Hindu tradition, actually, it is built in.  I'm not sure in my own culture, if I've seen it built in quite this way. But in the Hindu tradition, young people kind of focus on learning spirituality, middle life is very much the building of the container, they like to build it into the plan. And then when you get a little older, again, you pick up this whole lifelong learner thing.  You pick it all up again, and you have even more spiritual practices, like you embrace it, because you have more time. And I thought, genius. And of course, it's like one of the oldest traditions that exists out there as people notice life for ages and ages. And just going with the flow.  I guess maybe that's the struggle is how good have I even been at times at being able to go with the flow? I mean, this acceptance and letting go. I mean, I think, was it a year or two ago, you mentioned wrinkles earlier, I realized, I've got something developing between my eyes on my nose. And when I smile, it changes the look. And I'm like, Oh, darn it.  But that's the acceptance, and letting go and kind of embracing the whole experience. And at the same token, one of my kids came home with a bruise on his face. Apparently, he likes to hit a slide while running away from another kid. And that's so distressing. And it's that same idea, like, Okay, I can't do anything, I have to let it go. It's this practice that happened. And it wouldn't have been what I would have chosen necessarily. But this is reality. And that was actually with Buddhism, that's how it all came about, as he realizes that aging thing. He had been isolated for so many years. No one ever told him about aging, and it was distressing. And so this lifelong pursuit ends up leading to this whole thing of being able to accept and let go.

Christina Roberts  14:43

And I think also our culture, again, doesn't champion aging, we champion youth. And I think sometimes when dreams do emerge or desires, there's some insecurity that goes along with that. And I think it's important to have people around us that are encouraging us to pursue those hidden things that we haven't done before. I'm thinking of a woman that I accompanied and she's in her 60s and never had the chance to finish her college degree because babies came along and always kind of had to defer that. And so it took a lot of encouragement, but she's back in school, and she's thriving. And it's not just because of time, but mentally, she's not trying to prove herself. She doesn't have an ego. I mean, she just genuinely wants to learn, and she's soaking up what her professors are offering and they're really encouraging her now to go on for her Master's. And it's just opened up this beautiful thing for her. But there's been insecurity along the way of having to encourage.  It's okay, it doesn't matter how old you are, this is still possible for you. And so I find that that's also something in our culture that we have to be aware of, as we're aging.

Chris Roberts  15:38

Yeah, I like that you mentioned that. I was discussing something with someone a few days ago, and this whole idea of being middle aged or being a little bit older. And the anxieties that we have, whether it's related to what we are going to do next, or it's related to health or our body or whatever it is. The anxieties that we face, we tend to go inward more, and it's a great opportunity to look inside. And it's also a great time to develop spiritual practices, whether it's centering prayer, mindfulness, whatever you choose to do that fits your sort of personality or your pathway. And I think it was incredibly encouraging to have this conversation. And then to maybe think about it, maybe here are some ways to be contemplative. And think about how to manage some of your anxieties and how to manage some of these stresses.

Kristina Kaiser  16:41

Thank you to both of you for jumping in. I am really sorry, Chris, to have been the one to break it to you that we are in middle age. Like, if that doesn't suit you, just let it go.

Chris Roberts  16:53

I'm only middle-aged within my body. 

Kristina Kaiser  17:05

Well, now is the time in our podcast where we take a few moments to talk about what we are into today. So tell me, what are we into friends?

Christina Roberts  17:14

So I am into an older program, I think it's a BBC program called Lark Rise to Candleford. And it's a period piece, it takes place in the 1800s. But it's this delightful little show about a lower income village called Lark Rise and then Candleford is the big town with the post office and whatnot, and kind of the social classes and culture back then. And it's something that our family can watch together, which sometimes can be a challenge to find something that's suitable for all ages. So I am into Lark Rise to Candleford.

Chris Roberts  17:44

I've been into that a little bit as well, our children love it.  But that is not the thing that I am into.  It is full of spring here in Wisconsin, and there are lots of bugs. And there are bees. And my goal, my son got stung last year by a wasp. And so we've been talking about what's a bee, what's a wasp. And you know, there's this fear of bees and I'm trying to really help him overcome his fear of bees, his anxiety. And we're going outside. And we're trying to learn the difference of what's the difference between a bee and a wasp and how aggressive one is and how harmless the other one is. And so I've been into spring, particularly as it relates to bees, and they're buzzing around and helping my son realize the importance of bees in spring.

Kristina Kaiser  18:44

I wish you well. We also had a child get stung so I can appreciate where you're at right now. And we are into thunderstorms. So we lived in the Massachusetts area, kind of near the ocean for like 18 years. And there are not many thunderstorms there.  They came occasionally but nothing really big like the Midwest where you can really get a good one. And so it was a couple nights ago there was a big thunderstorm right before we went to bed and we went out to the porch. And then we went out to another porch and we sat down on the porch and just watched the light show. It was really a light show. And it was just delightful. So we really embrace the thunderstorms. 

Well, thank you everyone for being with us. If you are an avid listener to the podcast, we do want to invite you to go ahead and check out our website thecontemplativelife.net There are ways to connect with us there. If you're interested in spiritual direction, having a sample session, you'd be welcome to contact us. All the info is available to you at thecontemplativelife.net Thanks so much. We'll see you soon.