Ep 69 Spirituality Today

In recent years, many of us have watched stores and spiritual communities alike, places that embodied the fabric of our childhood, disappear. The American landscape is changing.

Many people today are opting to take a mosaic approach to meeting their spiritual needs. And at the same time, many are looking backwards, remembering times when they felt more spiritually alive than they do right now.  

Today we’re taking some time to talk about the spiritual landscapes many of us are finding ourselves in. We talk about the struggles we’re facing, the needs many of us are feeling, and then we close by asking: Where does this leave us? Join us as we explore the landscape of spirituality today.  

Additional Resources
Image: Contemplative Tree 

#OneStopShop
#Journey
#Community
#InnerWisdom 

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

spirituality, church, longing

SPEAKERS
Dominic Kaiser, Christina Roberts, Chris Roberts, Kristina Kaiser 

Dominic Kaiser  00:06
Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens. 

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser.  We're glad you joined us. 

Kristina Kaiser 

Hello, it's good to be with you. Today, we are taking some time to talk about our spirituality, as it relates to communal places of worship. And just to kind of give a little background for why this has come up for me. I was talking recently with someone who was sharing about their own search for a church home. And walking through all of the considerations, things they were thinking about social justice, a place where there was diversity, age wise and ethnically and being able to feel like the sermons kind of match their thought processes. And then working with their spouse’s needs and the things that they're thinking about. And as I had walked away from that conversation, I found myself wondering kind of about the whole landscape of what we're talking about, in general, just spirituality and how people are connecting with it. Because, you know, I helped to start a church back in 2010. And if I think back 12 years ago, I can remember just all the things that we were thinking about and talking about, and kind of how we wanted to be all things to all people. And so I imagined all these connections in the community and ways that people could go to programs, volunteer if they wanted to, and there would be dynamic preaching, and engaging music and all the things for people to be able to engage spiritually. And then as other people joined in, we added in all of their things. And so there were just so many things. And you know, just to say, as best as I can tell, I think that's been the American story. I've read these articles that talk about these big department stores like Macy's and Sears. And there was this idea that everybody would go, and they would get everything in one place. That was the big draw. And it seems like it worked for a time like most of the 1900s Actually, there was this upward, upward, upward rise. And then somewhere in the 90s, something changed, and it started to go the other way.  The store started to be emptier, and they started to consolidate, and something that was quite popular, and it seemed like it would never go away. Some of them don't even exist anymore, which I think, in a way, has been true at the spiritual level as well.  We see more and more churches reporting these declines, more and more people are citing this difficulty of seeing how one place really speaks to everything that the Spirit has put inside of me. And so maybe it would be kind of fun for us to talk about it here. Are we, maybe, done with the one-stop-shop, if you will? What is everybody else wondering about? I am eager to hear your thoughts.

Christina Roberts  03:08

It’s interesting, even using the phrase, a one-stop-shop when it relates to spirituality. And, I'm all for the super targets, where you can do a lot of things in one store, that feels very convenient to me. And Amazon, all the things. But it's interesting using that phraseology with church and spirituality, because I think of those as more spaces like a communal space, a communal gathering, a communal people, versus a shop or a stop. And yet how many times have we heard the phrase, Oh, I'm church shopping.  I moved into a new town, and I'm church shopping. So it's interesting to me some of that consumer mindset that we have, or the convenience mindset. It's interesting your studies about the department stores, because I think I can see both /and.  On the one hand, there is more of a push for local or specialization. And at the same time, I think we do or at least maybe it's just me that loves where multiple shops are in one area, like maybe it's the outdoor mall, or the Super Target type situations. And so I wonder if there's a tension that we feel aware of, we do want the convenience, we do want the accessibility and yet, there was something about the specialty.  Where it's like, I can get most of my stuff here, but then there's this one thing that I have to order at the specialty store or go to the particular place to get this one thing that I'm looking for. So that's what comes up for me as you bring up this topic.

Chris Roberts  04:30

I really appreciate what both of you guys have brought up. Thinking about a community or thinking about a parish is a lot different than thinking about a church. I think that we've had different ways of viewing what is our spiritual life, and how do we gather around our spiritual community? I think that's evolved a lot over the last 100 years. And thinking about it being in decline, I think I've heard a ton of clergy people say that during the pandemic, it's just been a backdoor. It's just been an open back door for people to exit. And so they can say I don't like zoom, or I don't like the online experience. You know, there's all kinds of things that people say, but I think it's been an evaluation time for people. What is meaningful?  What is significant for me right now in my life and my spiritual journey?  And so as I talked to people, the one stop shop is probably not ever going to return because we have so much information that is online, we have so many resources, spiritual resources, so many different places that you can go to discover spiritual practices or spiritual learnings. I like spiritual community gatherings as it relates to it being a one stop shop, yet I wonder if it is a relic of the past.

Kristina Kaiser  06:00

Yeah, I mean, very interesting observations. And I sympathize. You know, whenever we think about, oh, do I like to go, for example, to a Target? Yeah, I do, right? Because I'd like to get a bunch done at once. Although, I mean, I think after I had kids, I probably stopped going to stores a lot and just got to be crazy. But I think I'm sympathetic to the story on two sides of the coin.  On one hand, it does feel like a lot, for any organization to say, let me be all these things. And let me do all of them. So amazingly, equally well, it almost seems unfair. And I can certainly speak to how stressful that felt. But I also see the struggle for an organization who's saying, you know, how do I find myself? And so how do those systems continue to exist? So I see that tension for those people. And then on this other side, if one is to be compassionate and loving towards the needs of another human, is it okay to be able to say, I'm gonna go here, and do protesting, or do mercy ministries to my community. And then I'm going to come over here because I have a child, and I want to nurture all of that. I'm gonna go over here, because they really lean into this contemplative stuff. And I'm curious about that, or they have an amazing band. I mean, I used to get so ruffled about it, you can't just go somewhere because they have a great band, how can you not be there? But can we embody that? Can we offer this more compassionate embrace of people? And that ability to move around? Can we shift culturally? I don't know.

Christina Roberts  07:48

So I think something that comes up for me is being a person as well, who has sort of had a mosaic approach to my spirituality in recent years.  I do recognize that maybe the bulk of my spirituality comes from this particular place, but certainly, there are other places where I am going to supplement or to get things that the primary community can't supply for me. And so there's an awareness of that. I wonder, though, how does that translate into where commitments lie where the community is?  What does it mean to give back? Even this, you know, every year we look over our finances, and so, in January, it's like, you know, what, I'm receiving a lot from this organization. And so I actually want to give some money towards them, because I haven't done that before. And I really am benefiting spiritually from them, even though I wouldn't consider them maybe my primary spiritual source. That became important for me to be part of that community and give in that way. Or maybe it is showing up for something that, you know, normally I might not, but they are needing a volunteer.  If I live locally, and I'm receiving something local. So I think what comes up for me is like, Where does the give and take relationship happen when we are maybe having more of a mosaic approach to our spirituality?

Chris Roberts  09:03

I think one of the things that comes up for me is I think when we think about our spiritual lives, sometimes what happens is we have a longing for what was my own life.  I was in a modern monastic community that really helped form my faith. And the amount of community in my young spiritual life.  It was daily, it happened hourly. I know a lot of people within that community that are no longer with that community. And there's this longing for what was and I think a lot of people are experiencing that longing for a spiritual life that was maybe a past thing. And it's really hard to make our way forward because our eyes are behind us rather than what is going to be life giving in the future and how can I find meaning and purpose and connection. And how can I do social justice? How can I give back? And so for me, I think that's a huge question, how do I keep my eyes forward rather than having a longing for what was in the past?

Kristina Kaiser  10:17

Yeah, these are both really important things to name.  This need for a community, it seems to actually continue to exist and all these conversations. As I'm looking for, and I'm going to use another one of those consumer terms again, the spiritual goods. As I look for the goods, how do I get the community if it's all over? So Christina, I love what you're naming around, Okay, can I invest in this community? What does it look like for me to invest in multiple communities, and maybe there is a shift, but that's so meaningful. And at the same time, Chris, what do you call this need to look forward to look outward and to see new possibilities? That's going to be a big part of the story. It seems like as we think about spirituality, in today's landscapes, these are super important.  Even as we're kind of moving forward, there's the stress, and there's the struggle and breaking into something that's new, and it's not nothing. And at the same time, this profound beauty of the reality of each person being so unique.  We were gathered as a spiritual community not too long ago, and we were talking about this contemplative tree.  There are all these kinds of large branches, and then more branches that come off. So maybe you're into, like, artistic things, or you're into activism, or you're into silence, and on and on. But out of movement, there's so many different ways to move the body.  You can go out into nature, you could be doing something with yoga, you could just be stretching in your living room.  There are so many ways to engage, to get generative spiritual experiences. And we're not always in the same place at the same time. So how do we embrace that?

Christina Roberts  12:07

Circling back to something that you were saying, I think that there's seasons to our spiritual communities that we experience. And I think sometimes we don't think in terms of that. This is my church, or this is my primary place of worship, rather than recognizing, okay, for a season, like you mentioned, in my early formative years, there were these people that were very meaningful to me, and that experience was wonderful and good. And that is no more and that is okay. And that is a natural cycle and part of life where I had this, and now I don't have that, and I have something different and it looks different. And I do think it's normal and natural to be attached to some of those past things. Rather than recognizing No, we've all changed and therefore my needs, and it's okay to name that.  We do have different spiritual needs. That's not a selfish thing to acknowledge. And maybe this group of people that got me to this place isn't the same group of people that's going to be on this next leg of the journey for me. And I think that's okay, that's valid. And I think sometimes naming that gives us the freedom to then explore and to branch out into these new expressions.

Chris Roberts  13:06

And I think another image that comes to my mind, I've been watching and reading a bit about people who traveled west in the 1800s for a more spacious expanse of life. And, I think they're leaving behind one life, and they have a vision for another life.  In order to get there, they have to go across 1000s of miles. And I think this vision of what it is that they're longing for propels them to make this journey. I think a lot of people are kind of in that space of, they're leaving behind this old life. And they have a vision for this new life. And they don't know exactly what it means to have this new life. They're just on this journey. They're on a spiritual journey. And they're trekking across landscapes to try to get to this new place. And I think for me, that's a helpful image as I think about people's spirituality, and how they want to move forward in life.

Kristina Kaiser  14:10

That is a really beautiful image of just needing a little space. Yeah, so I think even as I'm hearing everybody talk, there's this, I'm naming it right, so many of us are naming it that something is different. And we're trying to move forward. And we don't necessarily entirely know how. So a little bit of space to figure it out, in point of fact, does feel helpful.

Christina Roberts  14:35

So where does this leave us? You know, if we're asking these questions like, what does this mean? And where does this leave us because of the need to hear the spirit within, to go back to that deep listening aspect.

And I think it's important to pay attention to that inner wisdom because sometimes what we think we need isn't really where the Spirit might be drawing us.  I was recently listening to a podcast with Eugene Peterson. For those who aren't familiar with him. He is the message Bible translator, and he pastored for a number of years.  He would always encourage people, when they moved to a town, to go to the closest church to where you live. Look at the map out and wherever it is, and stay there for at least six months. And then if you can't connect and don't like it, then go to the next closest church, rather than going based on Well, what do I think I need? Or I like this style or whatever. And really to commit to those people because they are part of the body of Christ, and you can learn from them. And I just think, well, that's a really rich perspective as well. I don't think that our culture maybe approaches it that way. We first tend to approach it with what I need and how can I get them met? As opposed to there is something to be said about whether there is beauty in the body of Christ and who's my nearest neighbor? And what does it mean for me to be in a situation where I'm going to be stretched to think different ways and to commit even when it doesn't feel good or fit my needs, or whatever. So I think there's lots of different perspectives.

Kristina Kaiser  15:55

And so even as we're all sharing and talking together, what sparks for me is the sense of being able to move into that deep inner wisdom space. Sometimes when we talk a lot about spiritual companionship here on the podcast, it is maybe helpful in the sense of a little dyad, or a little community of people where we can sit, and notice what stirs. But there are definitely themes here like needs for certain connections and desires that we have. But what the Spirit may be saying to us, what is the call? Maybe that internal being able to go in and find that deep inner wisdom is where we're at in the journey, perhaps. So thank you guys for being in this conversation, being in the middle of who knows where, and naming that we don't exactly know. But we know something is there and we're willing to talk about it. We're willing to live with the tension of it. So thank you for that.

Kristina Kaiser  17:08

Now, we are going to transition to the part of our podcast where we talk about what we are into this week. So what are we into?

Chris Roberts  17:17

I have been deep diving into the most comfortable walking, hiking and running shoes. And so those that know me, whenever I want to research something, I really go on a journey of discovering all the possibilities. And so I've been researching what is the most comfortable hiking running shoe. And I've ordered it and it is going to be showing up on my doorstep today. I am into running shoes. And yeah, hopefully this will make my life better and make my feet more comfortable.

Christina Roberts  17:55

Well, I am into Build A Bear workshops. And so we have three kids and for some reason our first two kids, we never really kind of ventured into that world. Our middle child received a Build A Bear but we never did the whole thing. But we recently went and my six-year-old is in love with his Bucky stuffed animal. So sweet and I forget how much joy a stuffed animal can bring a child.  There's something about picking it out and creating it and stuffing it. You put in the heart and proudly display it. Somebody came over last night and he got the birth certificate out and showed our friend the birth certificate. And so I just thought, “What a delightful little place”.  So I am into the Build A Bear workshop.

Kristina Kaiser  18:34

So exciting. Oh goodness, I think that I am into the pool passes that we just signed up for. Because it has been “sprinter” in central Wisconsin for weeks now. Like there's no spring, it's some sort of hybrid experience. And we had a new water park open in our town last year and we only got to go once. So I'm so excited. My husband's swim trunks are like 20 years old. We got new swim trunks. We're gonna do this thing all the way. So that is what I'm into. 

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