Ep 65 Non-Duality

Today we’re talking about the expansiveness that non-duality can bring to our awareness and thinking. Feeling like things are either/or can be comforting to us at times. But it can also cause us to feel stressed out, limited, and disconnected from the Divine. What do we do with suffering? What do we do when we’re afraid we’ll do the wrong thing? Join us for a tour of some of the many ways that non-duality can help us to experience more of the nuances life has to offer.  

Additional Resources
Book: Learning to Walk in the Dark by Barbara Brown Taylor
Movie: Inside Out 

#NonDualAwareness
#NonDualThinking
#BothAnd
#ThirdWay
#Compassion

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

non duality, dualistic thinking, barbara brown taylor, rohr

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.  

Kristina Kaiser

Hello, it's great to be with you. Today we are discussing the topic of non-duality. And for those who might be a little unfamiliar with what that is, we really tend to think of non-duality in terms of the “both/and”.  This kind of idea that expands our awareness of God, expands our idea of acceptance of others and the world around us. And so we'll probably look at this in multiple lenses throughout our time today, but we thought we would start with non-dual awareness, which could be described as this awareness of God. Connection to God, both in the dark aspects of our lives, the struggle, the suffering, and in those happier, celebratory, lighter areas of our lives. So as we get going, how about I'll just open the conversation to all of us.  What is your experience of non-duality? 

Chris Roberts  01:19

I think for me, where non duality is really present in my life, or how I think about it, is in the whole notion of dark, and light, and night and day. And I've just been on a journey recently that there are things that happen in darkness, that cannot happen in the light. And it is essential to my growth as an individual, just as much as the light is. And so for me, it's like, light and dark, good and bad. You know, those things can be dualistic thinking.  This is good, this is bad. And I'm not saying that, there is no bad or evil. I think in our world right now, there is evil that is happening with wars and stuff. But I'm thinking with personal choice, like our own journey, how do we get rid of dualistic thinking. And I think it's just an awareness of God and all things like God is in the more challenging, or what we would say dark seasons, dark nights of the soul. Those are a part of your journey, those are part of your story. And embracing that can be super helpful, instead of saying, Oh, this is not good, this is a place that I don't want to be. It actually is a good place for you. And finding God in the midst of that place can be helpful. So that's what I think of when I, when I think of a non dual awareness.

 Christina Roberts  02:55

What comes up for me is language. And I really appreciate Kristina, you naming “both/ and” because I think for me, awareness starts with paying attention to what words are coming out of my mouth, what thoughts pop into my head. And when I recognize that I have an either /or situation. And that happens all the time when I'm talking about something, and I'll catch myself, and I'll acknowledge what I just said. And I'll try to bring in the other aspect of that. And that's been a really important practice for me, and even recognizing how dualistic I am in the way that I approach life. And this invitation to maybe lean into more of non duality. So I think, for me, just kind of that basic level of language and awareness has been super helpful. 

 Kristina Kaiser  03:36

The both/and language is very helpful. And even as both of you are talking this word that starts to roll through my head is compassion. Because I think there was a huge part of me for a long time that just wanted God to be all good.  That all the good came from God and what did that mean to the wrestling with what goes on in the struggle? I think there was for a long time, this sense of, Oh, you got to just get happy and you got to get to that good place and you got to get your faith right. As opposed to God having compassion when we are in the middle of a difficult time.   I was reading a Rohr daily digest recently, and there was a different person writing the article that day, but they were talking about all those scriptures about “Do not fear”. And kind of pointing out that a lot of times we read that in a voice that's kind of harsh, like, get it together, pull yourself together.  Whereas maybe it's kind of like, Come here, don't be afraid. And what voice do we read in and the more that I thought about it, the more I realized I need both of those actually.  Sometimes I'm gonna need to get it together. And sometimes I'm gonna need to come here. It's okay you know, I'm going to do both of those actually, depending on the situation.

 Christina Roberts  04:58

Yeah, and I think even Chris to your point or earlier with the light and dark. We've talked before on this podcast about Barbara Brown Taylor, she wrote a wonderful book, Learning to Walk in the Dark. And someone had asked her in her interview after the book was out, if there's anything that she would change, having walked through the pandemic.  She said that she would write more about dusk and dawn, where the coming together of dark and light happen. And that was just so striking to me. And in my own life after reading that, paying attention to those moments, and that's when those are the Instagram worthy photos, right? Did you see this beautiful sunset tonight, no filter. And there's something about the dark and light meeting. Even here in Wisconsin, it's technically spring. And so we will have a sunny day. But also, there's these huge snowflakes that were falling the other day. And so it's this sort of like, winter and spring are still meshed together. They haven't quite separated yet. And how do we experience that? And I think that there's nuance to that, there's complexity, there's gradient. And to me that feels very inviting in the non-dualistic way of thinking. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, that there's just these shades and these gradients that we could experience in our lives.

 Chris Roberts  06:06

Yeah. And I think what we're describing here is just an openness to more, an openness to seeing beyond where we're at. Maybe taking a bird's eye view rather than a myopic, or microscopic view of our world. And I think for me where this really comes into play is when people talk about decisions or making decisions. When I'm thinking about making a decision, it's like, well, which decision should I make? Or what do I need help in discerning here? About life? What should I do? What do I choose? And, you know, sometimes I think, it doesn't matter which choice that I choose. I think God will be in the midst of whatever choice. And we think, Well, I better choose the right one, because if I don't, things will go bad. Well, if that is the case, if things go bad, there's something to learn, there's something to to experience from this choice.  If we have a different viewpoint, a vantage point, we're going to get what we need to in that season, rather than sort of trudging through. So that's another thing that comes up for me as we think about dualistic thinking or non-duality.

 Kristina Kaiser  07:32

Yeah. And as we're talking, even as we think back to that day, and night time coming together, it's sort of this opportunity to observe the outer world and let it teach us something about our inner world. And look what's happening here. Look, what you can see, look how these two things can blend and merge together. How is that true in all of life? What does this teach me about life in general, so that then we start to be able to look at our decisions like you're talking about.  Culture and other people's lives, and the decisions that they're making? And so we're talking a little bit about non dualistic thinking too, right? So we have awareness, our connection of God thinking, and this both/and, there's subtleness, there is mystery. It’s not your way or my way, your culture or my culture, there's room for both of these possibilities, which is so opening, it's so freeing. 

 Christina Roberts  08:33

I think that when we can lean into that, I'm just thinking of the power of Examen and having the practice of naming what were my consolations.  Where did I experience God and goodness, today? And what were my desolations? Where did I feel an absence of that? And oftentimes, it can be in the same memory, it could be in the same scenario where I felt a profound sense of that, in that moment, and in a dissonance in that moment, as well. I'm thinking of the movie Inside Out for those who are Pixar fans. And in that movie, too, all the emotions are behind the scenes. And when she's thinking back to some of her memories, some of them did include sadness, and joy, and just this profound relationship of those two coming together. 

 And so I think, whether it's our thinking and expanding the way in which we're engaging with others, our emotional awareness, all of that.  I think, again, you're talking about this expansiveness that grows us, we have so much more richness to experience in life when we're not doing that. And I also think dualism is comfortable, right? It's like, these are my two choices. It's not complicated, right? And I think sometimes it's easy to think, Well, how could there possibly be something beyond either of these two choices, right? These are the options that are in front of me. And yet, I think when we're committed to a non-dualistic framework, things emerge that otherwise wouldn't appear to us or come to the surface. And so I think that feels very much in connection with it's not just me in my little life, but there is a divine presence at work to sort of amping up the opportunities and the experiences. 

 Kristina Kaiser  10:03

I was reading something recently about how certain we are when we think we know that when we think we know everything.  We become very limited, and there are no other options even when that's not true and we have many options that actually exist to us. And it is profound. And it's hard to leave that sense of knowing it's hard to expand our own selves and say maybe there are more options here. But it's funny. I was in a conversation recently, where one person was thinking one very specific way, about another human, and they were asking me about my opinion. And then the other person came in, and we were able to ask them, they had a totally different idea and description of the way things were. And it, it really kind of shocked me because I realized, if I wouldn't have had those two people in front of me, I would have so easily been swayed to the first person's side. But getting the chance to hear both, I was like, Oh, this is different. There's more than one possibility here and experience based and all sorts of things. So just more people in the room really helped me to open up my own thinking, 

 Chris Roberts  11:19

I love that there's more than one possibility. And it's funny, even bringing up, Inside Out the movie, we actually had to get together the other day. And we were talking about a couple of different films like Inside Out and one of the statements was, those movies are not for children. You know, like, they're so deep. And they're really for adults, these concepts. And I had the thought, Well, why can't it be for adults And children? Why can't we put some of these concepts in their thinking already?  I understand what the person was saying, these are big, heavy concepts that all adults need to partake of, and to listen to. But I think, you know, it's like, it's not for this, it's for this. Well, can it be for both? And so I really appreciate what you guys are saying.

 Christina Roberts  12:14

And I think too, in theological circles, often the term third way is something that emerges when thinking about non duality.  When we're looking at Scripture and even your point, Chris, that the Bible is so profound, and for deep theologians that can spend their whole life studying one book of the Bible, and a six year old can connect with something in the Bible, too. And so I love the complexity and richness and the simplicity of that as well. Yeah, so I think in all the different things that that we're naming that there's those sorts of both /and opportunities,

 Kristina Kaiser  12:44

That is very profound, thank you for bringing that to my attention. And then bringing it all back to this connection to God aspect of it, that somehow God is in the moments of our day. Prayer, then doesn't have to only be asking, prayer can be abiding, walking with. There are so many more options, as we start to really sit in the notion of both/and, non-dualistic thinking.  So thank you guys so much for opening up this conversation. I'm sure it will come up in a million different ways as we move forward into our lives.

 Kristina Kaiser  13:28

Now is the time that we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So pray, tell, what are you into these days?

 Christina Roberts  13:37

Well, I am drinking coffee from my Canadian mug. So our family recently returned from a spring break trip to Canada. And it was so much fun. And I'm usually not a souvenir kind of person. But my kids are super into souvenirs. And they had this Dollar Rama shop at one of the places in Montreal and so we gave the kids a couple of bucks. And then we found these fun Canada mugs. And so I am happily drinking from my Canada mug, remembering and reminiscing about our trip.

 Chris Roberts  14:05

Well. I'm into something that's similar to Christina.  We just got back from a trip from Canada and when I was 20 years old, I had a friend that went on a trip to Canada, and they brought me back a hat that was a specific brand Roots and it has a Canadian flag on it. And I thought, well, while I'm in Canada, I'd really like to get a Roots hat. And so in one of those souvenir shops actually, I found myself a Roots hat that actually has a Canadian flag on the back of the logo and it reminds me of my friendship with this person in my younger adult years.  So I am also into souvenirs, expensive souvenirs.

 Kristina Kaiser  15:04

Well, I'm happy for both of you. It is always fun to get away. So I am not into anything related to travel. But this is our second year getting ready to plant a garden. So last year, it was sort of like planting all the things to see what happens. And this year we are becoming more specific. So I learned that there is a schedule for planting certain types of seeds. And so we have a whole written out, like this date, we're going to plant these seeds and these are going outside and these just go in the ground. I'm very excited to see what happens. So that is what I am into right now. 

 Well, thank you everyone for being with us. If you would like to connect more, you're welcome to visit our website, the contemplative life.net.  You can subscribe to our newsletter there, you can grab our email address and connect with us or see what we have coming up in the future or check out our resources tab. Thanks so much for being with us. We'll talk to you all soon. Bye, everybody.