Ep 62 Evolving Faith

Evolution is defined as the gradual changing of something from a simpler form to a more complex one. And what we’ve noticed in our spiritual lives is that faith, like all of life is evolving. How we experience the Divine in our lives, what that means to us…our understanding and experience of these things changes over the course of our lives. In this episode, we talk about the importance of feeling like it’s okay to ask our questions. We notice that change can feel disorienting and even difficult, but at the same time, change also brings more depth and richness to our connections and experiences. Join us as we explore these ideas together! 

Additional Resources
Activity: The Wizard Questin the Wisconsin Dells 

#DynamicFaith
#Examen
#EvolvingFaith
#FaithJourney 

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Transcript

Dominic Kaiser  0:06  

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us. 

Kristina Kaiser

 Hello, it's good to be with you. Today, we are talking about evolving faith, this idea that faith, like all of life, is evolving. And probably each one of us here on the podcast can identify that in our own lives, ways in which we see that happening. How it kind of moves through as we have experiences, how that changes our thoughts, our beliefs, our emotions, the whole bit. So we thought we might take some time to invite all of us into that conversation. What is it like to have an evolving faith? What comes up in us when all of that happens? What can we grab on to help us as we go through all of that? 

Chris Roberts  1:05  

Well, I like the conversation and where we're headed with this notion of evolving faith, because I think all of life is changing, and moving and growing. I mean, we just have to look outside or look at the season, and we have to look at our own lives. I think that something that comes up for me, when we talk about evolving faith, is this notion of doubt. Some people would say in faith traditions, unbelief.  I don't necessarily want to think of unbelief. I just think unbelief casts a negative light on doubt. And I think Doubting Thomas gets a bad rap. But I think doubt is crucial to an evolving faith. And having permission to doubt is key to growing in faith. And one of the things that I find interesting is, as I've observed, doubting from a place of love is a lot more beneficial and healthy to moving forward or evolving, then doubting from a place of criticism or skepticism. I think if we're skeptical, cynical, there's that edge in us. But I think it's easier to grow from a place of love than a place of cynicism, or skepticism. And so I think, for me, having that permission to doubt systems, doubt structures and thinking about it in a way of, If I change this, would it make my relationships more loving? Would it make my experiences with faith a little more meaty, and have a little bit more weight to it? So I think that's one thing that comes up for me as we talk about an evolving faith.

Christina Roberts  2:43  

Yeah, I have to say that this term evolving faith has been around for a while now.  There are different pockets of Christianity that are in these circles talking about that. And I never really resonated with that concept necessarily, or that word evolving. But the more that I'm learning about, Chris, to your point, all you have to do is look outside, and life is always changing, there's a dynamism, there's movement. And it really is an evolution, there's transformation. There's different words that we can use for it. But it's the same idea that who I was and what I believed 10 years ago is very different from who I am today. And who I am today is going to also be different than who I will be 10 years from now as well, and that's a good thing. There's a quote, “love must grow or die”. And so our love, what you're describing, Chris, if we're not growing and changing and evolving, then the alternative is to stagnate and to die. So I appreciate the kind of this dynamism that we're naming today.

Kristina Kaiser  3:38  

In so many ways, we evolve because we must, right? If we look historically at evolution, something needed to change in order to thrive and do better in how we were living. As we come across new information and new relationships, I think, especially in my life, new information, the only reasonable thing to do was really to evolve, to change. And it comes with its struggles, for sure. But it reminds me a little bit, when you talk about evolution in faith, it can be helpful to talk about in the context of the Holy Spirit.  So in John 16:13, we hear when the Spirit of truth comes, there's going to be all of this guidance into truth, kind of like paying attention. And there's this moment, way back several years, even before we had children, and somebody was praying over us. He was kind of known as a prophet guy. And he said something, both of our heads, my husband and I, they snapped forward and this guy's eyes were closed. And he says, Oh, you did not know this. As new information comes, not just prophetic information, but even things that we're learning and setting historical context, of course evolution happens. 

Christina Roberts  5:03  

And what comes to mind to build off of that Kristina is, there's these profound verses in the Bible in Corinthians where Paul talks about this idea of, when I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned like a child. But when I grew up, I put those childish things away. And so there's this evolution of even our mindsets, the way in which we approach and think about life. Of course, we see that in our natural progression and the ways in which our brain develops from childhood to adulthood. But even if you look at brain science of the neuroplasticity and the opportunities that we have for our mindsets to change, all throughout the Bible we are encouraged to renew our minds and to be transformed, and to put away the childish ways and to become more adult in our approach to the world. And so there seems to be such a compelling invitation all throughout Scripture, towards this idea of evolution changing.

Chris Roberts  5:58  

Yeah, it's interesting, even in this conversation, the whole notion of evolution and faith, even being in the same, those two things seem to be opposing one another. And I think we've moved a lot, I think we've moved forward in looking at evolution as a part of our faith process. But I think some people might have a negative reaction to that, right? Like, how is evolution and faith, how can they even be in the same sentence with one another? Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest, who did a lot for evolution. His readings are very dense and complex and there are people now who are modernizing it and making it accessible for the average person. But one of the things that I found interesting about his writing was the evolution of our faith journey as it relates to the Examen practice. And one of the key components is the practice of Examen every day, and looking at where God was even in the negative moments, and becoming thankful and aware.  I find that to be super helpful, as we talk about our evolving faith or our changing life. And so in this practice of Examen, you look at your life, and you're like, Okay, this moment seems to be without God. Jesuits are known for saying, There is no such thing of life without God ever. God is in everything. God is everywhere, in everything. And so looking at these experiences of our life, and saying, You know what, I don't know that I, I would say that I'm thankful at first glance for this situation. But as I take a step back from it and I look at the whole picture, I actually can become thankful for this situation. And I can see how it would be key to changing some of my processes in my own life. And so that's, that's something that comes up for me as we talk about evolution and faith.

Kristina Kaiser  8:09  

As you're talking, I find myself realizing there's two sides of resistance. One side seems to be this way in which the Spirit is leading. So with that discernment, Examen practice, where is the movement in my life? Resistance sometimes tells us something, right? And then there is this difficulty that comes along with change, especially if we like things to feel steady. And isn't that the great part about faith? It can feel like there's something steady only now that's changing too. And so there is a struggle involved. If we have friends, and we have identified with a certain group of people, now suddenly having a question mark about whether or not we have the same identities can it can make it feel a little bit like, Oh, how do I tell people even that I'm thinking these things or having these questions? It's shocking when we change. I have young children and as they move into adolescence, there is a change in it that is shocking. I found myself saying, When did this thought occur? Like when did you want to make this choice? Why is this happening? It's jarring for everybody in that process and so there are two sides to that resistance coin.  There's a positive, there's movement. And then there's this kind of internal struggle.

Christina Roberts  9:33  

Yeah, absolutely. I think it feels so compelling that this idea of expansiveness and growth edges And also, I think some of my challenges with the idea of evolving faith is that there are more questions than answers at that point.  The questions emerge. And the types of questions that tend to be emerging in our process aren't ones that can be easily answered. And the ones that we sit with are ones that we maybe sit with for years unanswered and holding space with that. And so I think this idea of having to live in liminal space where I did believe this felt so certain and solid to me. And now I'm in this sort of liminal space where I'm not quite sure what I think about that anymore. That can feel a little disorienting. And yet, knowing that on the other side of this probably is a little bit more expansiveness or love or connection. And so it's worth it to walk through that, but certainly not without its challenges and difficulties. 

Chris Roberts  10:26  

So that's been a very important phrase for me lately, “living the question”. And another thing that comes to mind is “we need connection more than we need answers”. And so in the place of your question, where are you finding meaning and connection in your relationships? And not just your human relationships, but your relationship with the Divine? How are you finding connection as you're living the question? So I think that's very important as we think about evolving faith.

Kristina Kaiser  10:57  

Yeah, even as you say that it even makes me think especially of connection with the Divine because as we ask those questions, it can cause us to really wonder what's going on. And the slowness of evolution is worth talking about. I think Richard Rohr says, we can only question 5% of what we believe at any given time, and it really takes so much time to ask a question and I marvel about this in myself.  I do a lot of work to speak of God in a genderless way and to teach about God in just a larger way. And I am still so aware, frustratingly aware that when I have an image of God, it is male. Something in me likes to revert back to something that is familiar and easy. Even though my mouth says all these things that seem forward and progressive. Like I want it, but it takes a long time to get there. And it takes a lot of processing in intentionality, processing with others, but God's gender aside, that connection with God feels more important, right. And even as we talk through the resistance, I think it's worth naming that it's worth it all of us struggle. It's worth it in the end. And so there's this kind of question of, okay, if it's so worth it, tell me more, I guess. But I think I am finding that as I engage with some of those things that were so hard to reconcile within myself, I can breathe a little bit lighter. I don't have the same fears about God that maybe I had at one time. So there is this struggle. But there's also this openness, expansiveness, comfort, as some of these questions that were so big and so large, and so bothering, find a space to land, at least land for now, to be able to say, okay, maybe that wasn't God, right? Maybe that was some idea that I had based on something else. And now that, you know, I'm free to ask the question. This is good. This is a better space.

Christina Roberts  13:15  

And maybe it would be helpful. And it might have been helpful earlier on in the conversation, but what does the word evolve, even mean? And so if we look at the definition of evolve, it's to develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form. And I think, Boy, if we talk about that in faith to develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form, gosh, that does just seem so much more inviting, and I think you're right, or our simple faith is something that's beautiful and wonderful. And we all need simple faith in our lives as part of our human experiences. But then to be able to gradually change it to that more complexity just feels so rich, to me to think about.

Chris Roberts  13:55  

I think the image that comes to me is when you look at a garden, you have these amazing flowers, but you have weeds too. And I think a lot of people, you know, they're so busy with the plucking of the weeds, but they don't even they don't even take time to ask, well, what is this weed even here for? Why did it grow here? What's it doing in the environment? What's it? What's it doing in the system? Why do we even exist? And so I think that's a helpful image for me as we as we think about becoming more moving from simplicity to more complex asking the questions of why and how and making room for things that you wouldn't make, you wouldn't have made room for in a more simplistic faith.

Christina Roberts  14:45  

Yeah, that reminds me of one of my high school history teachers. He said, You know, we are not going to learn about dates and facts. We are only going to ask the question of why in this history class and no wonder I loved it. So none of our quizzes were about the war of whatever. It was all about the “why”, we need to be learning from our history and growing together. I don't know that he used the word evolve, but that concept of changing the question from the who, what, where details to the why. It might also be worth mentioning as well, evolving and then faith, like what exactly is faith, I think certainly it includes a belief system and our beliefs and credences. But it's also its movement, its action, it's, it's what I am doing, it's how these paradigms are actually influencing my day to day life is how I would coined that term as well. So I think to me, this idea of an evolving faith just feels very compelling.

Kristina Kaiser  15:37  

And it feels really important that you're naming that question. Why? Because I actually do feel like there were times in my spiritual upbringing where people actually said, Don't ask why, right. And it was often in relation to why things happen or whatever, don't ask why. So I think it's a really important thing to be able to give ourselves permission to ask the why and to go deeper. And I really kind of go back for a moment to that notion of, Oh, I had this one type of faith earlier in my life and it's moving. That 1 Corinthians 13 quote that you are giving, it is so true that over the course of my life, you know, when I was a child, I believed one thing, and I came into early adulthood, and I found a little bit more, and I was like, Oh, this is it. And I moved into kind of the middle phase of life. And I found a little bit more that this is it. And I assume that's going to keep happening. It's hard to imagine what that's going to be. But that's kind of the thing, you don't really know what's coming and sort of being able to kind of roll with that and have fun with it and be relaxed. And it seems helpful.   I think it's such an important aspect of what we're doing and how we're growing. 

But thank you so much for this conversation. I think it means so much to each and every one of us, and will probably just continue talking about these things in an ongoing way.

And now is the time when we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So what are we into today, friends? 

Christina Roberts  17:20  

Well, I am into the Wizard Quest. So we live about 45-50 minutes from the Wisconsin Dells, and they just opened up this new thing called the Wizard Quest, which takes up an entire block of a street. And it is so fun. You go on these quests and there's earth, air, wind, fire, and you have a little tablet, and they send you on these quests. And there's a UV flashlight where you have to find the paw prints of the salmon to see where they are. And then you have to go get essence from the trees. And we were there for two hours and it was just this delightfully fun afternoon. So I am into the Wizard Quest.

Chris Roberts  17:55  

Well, one of the things that I've been into lately, I think I've talked recently about my son knowing the time when the sun is setting and telling us about the sunset. But now we're into in the morning we get up and we look at the weather in these different places of the world. And now he's into time zones like, like, Greece is nine hours, there's a nine-hour time difference. And France is a seven-hour time difference. And so it's really fun to quiz my son on the time zone differences in all these different locations. He just loves holding the Apple Remote and saying, What's the weather in Spain? What's the weather in Greece? What's the weather in Panama? All the places where he knows people. And so it's been fun, learning the temperatures and learning the time zone differences. So that's what I've been into recently.

Kristina Kaiser  18:54  

So amazed by this little one. We have children that are similar ages and your little ones interests are always like Wow, that's quite amazing. I love it. And that thing that you went on a quest?  What is it called? Say it again? 

Christina Roberts  19:10  

Wizard Quest

 Kristina Kaiser  19:12  

A Wizard Quest. Remarkable. I love it. I think I'm into something so amazingly mundane, but it brings me great joy. And that is my pink pen. I don't know even when I got these pens, but they were like a green one and an orange one and a pink one. And most of them can't be seen well, but the pink one shows up pretty well. And I find myself intentionally pulling it out for the kids as assignment notebooks. And when I'm jotting unimportant notes to myself, it just brings a little bit of extra joy, which makes me think I probably should get more pink depending. So that is what I'm into.

Christina Roberts  19:51  

That's wonderful.

Kristina Kaiser  19:53  

Well thank you so much for being with us. It was always good to be with you.  If you would like to stay in touch, feel free to go to our website, thecontemplativelife.net.  Right from the top, you can subscribe to our newsletter, get in touch with various places that we are on social media and stay connected on things that are coming up. Thanks so much for being with us. We'll see you again soon.