Ep 58 Learning from Indigenous Wisdom

Today we’re digging deeper into the wisdom of Indigenous populations from all over the world. And, in particular, we’re drawing inspiration from leaning into the power, meaning, and beauty of circles. The circle, for many of us, can represent a helpful decentralizing of power and a sense of community. Join us as we explore some of our own experiences with circles, seasons, and cycles. Ask questions with us. And in the end, may each of us find new delight and admiration for the beauty and life that exists both in us and around us. 

#Circle
#Wisdom
#Equality
#Indigenous

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Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

indigenous wisdom, sacred circle, life cycles, traditions

Dominic Kaiser  00:06

Welcome to The Contemplative Life: Three pastors, friends and spiritual companions help us explore spirituality through a contemplative lens.

I'm Christina Roberts.
I'm Chris Roberts.
I'm Kristina Kaiser. We're glad you joined us.  

Kristina Kaiser  00:23

Hello, thank you for being with us today. We are talking today about learning from indigenous peoples and gaining wisdom from things that have been their traditions for many years. And so a little bit of context, I have been studying these things on my own for some classes that I'm taking. And it has just been fascinating me and seeping into me. And I find myself wanting to learn more. And so a lot of what we're talking about today is kind of new processing. But just to kind of give you a sense of it, one of the things that I was so excited about was this power, this notion of how meaningful circles are. And so it for instance, they always gather, like maybe you have a campfire, you always gather in a circle. And that is intentional, you might think well, yeah, because it's light, and you wanted to gather. But it's deeper than that. There's this understanding. And there's this belief that when we are in this circle, that everyone is included, that the circle can get wider if need be, it can get smaller if need be. But we're all on this together, there's this power of a circle. And there is a contrast in our own world, like in our own faith traditions, we may gather in circles, but we may also gather in rows. And we see meaning in both of those. Whereas in an indigenous culture, that notion of gathering in a row doesn't exist. And so I just thought I might open it up a little bit for us to chat a little bit today about the wisdom that we can glean from indigenous peoples. 

Christina Roberts  01:58

Well, first of all, thank you for bringing up this topic. Because I too have been really fascinated lately by indigenous peoples and learning from them. But like you I feel like a novice.  Where does one begin? And I appreciate that, in the things that I've read, there's such simplicity to some of these concepts that we are presented with. But as you sit with them, it's like that is really profound. And so even with this idea of a circle, I agree with you.  I think in our traditional educational settings, there is the row and the expert upfront that's sort of spilling out their wisdom and expertise. And you know, even in our church setting for a number of years, we've gathered around a table, we call it church around the table. There are several tables. And there's something about decentralizing the power all being together around a circle. It's just a very different feel and format. Or oftentimes in contemplative retreats, it's even named a sacred circle, and we're all gathering in a circle. We're all equal, all of our voices matter, we can see each other, there's not this power dynamic. And so I love just even the simplicity of what you're naming today, and how that affects even something like education or the ways that we're communicating to each other. 

Chris Roberts  03:03

Yeah, I think when I was first introduced to something like a circle, in a religious context, I was at a seminar, a gathering of people who were trying to learn about how to do spirituality in a different way. And this famous American speaker was there. And when I walked in, it was in a circle, and she was speaking in front of a circle. And she went into why it's a circle instead of why we're in rows. And I really liked it, because everybody was facing one another. And, you know, you had religious icons and crosses and stuff, sort of, as a central point, the focus point, and everybody was looking at that, and everybody was able to see one another. And it was such a different setting than what I was used to at the time. And so I really went into that experience thinking, wow, this is amazing. This is a lot different than what I've encountered before. And so, we took the experience, and then I think we started with a half circle.  How do this amazing thing, but not sort of knee jerk people who are used to certain things. And then we've developed into two circles, but I think the idea that I'm drawn to is what element or component is at the center.  You named gathering around a fire and the fire is sort of the gathering thing that brings people together. I know that when people used to go to wells and draw water from the well, it was a circle, and there was this sustenance, this thing at the center that would bring people together to have community. But there was a life-giving thing in the center. So I think as I've been reading books, and talking about with others that I'm coming into contact with indigenous wisdom, the learnings that I am drawn to is water, the components that gather people together for this power of circle to happen.

Kristina Kaiser  05:24

This is a really great question. And I think you're right, the fire does represent so many things, and maybe differently from one population to the next. Like the Greenland people. In this one video I was watching, they're sharing it gets dark here, like all day for certain times of the year. But what we believe about the sun is that it reflects beauty. And so when we light these fires, it allows that beauty to continue to be reflected with a thought, again, also a circle. It's not even a literal circle. But this notion of beauty is reflected. It's almost like this invisible understanding of a circle. I'm also thinking of your decentralizing, this notion of everyone mattering.  I think their stories really reflect this belief that everyone in the circle matters, everybody's got a role. And they treat it with such respect. It's like I am the keeper of the seeds. And the seeds will feed how many future generations. Or I remove the brush or I gather something, I do something I contribute to life. And that notion of all these things working together and contributing to life becomes this really big theme. It's really awe inspiring.

Christina Roberts  06:44

Yeah. And as we're talking about how we're arranging things, I'm also bringing to mind cycles.  When I think in terms of in Christianity, we talk about our discipleship or growing closer to God. And oftentimes, it can be kind of this linear thing, like you do this discipline, then this discipline, and it's kind of a building upon versus more of a mosaic or a cycle that we go through. And we learn lessons, we have these growths, and then it seems like Man, why am I doing this? Again? Why am I circling back to these same principles? Or ideas? Haven't I gotten this yet? And it's like, well, you're a different person that you are today than you were back then. And so of course, we're going to revisit.  Just like it's winter right now. It's silly to think that I can go swimming right now because the lakes are frozen. And so there's going to be different things that I'm learning in the winter. And next winter, it's the same lessons.  So I think even in our spiritual lives, we have these cycles that we work through that seems to be, I think, easier to kind of grasp onto that wisdom. Where are you going in this linear versus it just seems like we keep having these cycles in our lives over and over again.

Chris Roberts  07:50

Yeah, I totally agree. Even as I sit with different people, one of the things that's often said is, Wow, I've come full circle. And almost this, Why am I here again?  I can't believe that I'm in this place again. And I think the thing that that we find challenging is in our destination, or in our journey, we don't want to repeat things. We don't want things. We want to move past things that we've experienced. In our past lives, we don't want to resurface or reface those things. I'm here again, and people recognize the need to embrace being here again.  Okay, I realize I'm resistant to being here again. But what new thing do I need to learn? And I discovered that in my own life, as I come full circle, you know, it's like, okay, well, maybe I need to learn this in a deeper way. Just like you're saying, Christina. And so I think coming full circle, or being in cycles is just part of our life, how we continue to grow deeper into things in our life, the things that are important to us.  Or into wholeness or into whatever it is that we need to grow into.

Kristina Kaiser  09:11

Yeah, I think that notion of seasons, seasons in and of themselves, also have that circle. Recently, I've even found myself thinking about how one thing closes down. That sometimes I've thought of, oh, that's so sad. That's coming to an end or whatever. But really, if we think about circles of life, and how when one thing closes down, it becomes the food for the next thing, right? It decomposes and it feeds whatever's next to come. So I think, Chris, you're onto something, right? You point it out, we come back around and we learn it in a deeper way or it's more enriched this time. And that is a different feeling than Oh, sometimes we used to laugh, this notion of lessons not learned will be repeated. But it was drudgery like, oh my gosh, I missed it. Now I have to do it again, as opposed to whatever I learned before is coming with me. And it feeds this moment with more wisdom there than there was the last time.  We are farther along.  It's interesting how it works.

Chris Roberts  10:21

And maybe you guys have thoughts on this. But the thing that I'm interested in is how the threshold and circle intersect. You know, like we get to these thresholds in life, where we're in one place, but then we need to enter into another place. And I think a curiosity I have is how do you experience that in a circle, or maybe in a community?

Christina Roberts  10:48

You know, it's interesting, you bring that up, Chris, because recently I was with a group of people. And we were reflecting on a passage from the Old Testament of the Bible, Ecclesiastes 3.  It's this Hebrew poem talking about God making everything beautiful, in it's time.  And it sort of offers these, a time to plant, a time to reap, a time to tear down, a time to build up.  What would be seemingly these opposites and sort of recognizing, like you're saying, that there are these continuums.  This middle space of like, at one point, like, there is a flipping going on of what you're talking about from one thing to the next. And then it flips again, sort of thing. So I guess for me, the threshold is sometimes not as obvious.  Like the threshold may take sort of a while to get to that point. And maybe other thresholds seem a little bit more immediate. So you know, I think sometimes in our seasons, number one, we don't know the length of the seasons.  The length is always going to change.  We oftentimes can't determine in our own personal lives. But I think there's also like multiple seasons going on at one time. It's not like we're just having one season, like, the weather is one season, but I think in our human lives, we're complex humans. And so I wonder if some of the crossing of the different seasons speaks to some of that what you're mentioning,

Kristina Kaiser  12:02

And what does it look like for a circle to be in motion? But it's very interesting to me and the indigenous populations, they often talk about ways that we are connected in a vertical sense, like maybe through a lineage, and in a horizontal sense, like, with the animals, and the food, and all the stuff that is also around us. And so it really is a wide swath. And I can almost imagine this giant bubble going round and round. But we also, how do we know when the seasons change? I mean, we just in a way feel it right, as we talk about the weather.  But what the threshold looks like when the seasons change, they seem to just roll into one another a little bit, which is interesting.

Chris Roberts  12:51

So I think another thing that comes to mind, one of my favorite Disney movies is probably the Lion King. And you know, it has a famous song, it's the Circle of Life. And I've been reflecting on the circle of life, particularly as it relates to my food. You know, I become conscious whenever I partake of sustenance, like something came to the end of its life, to sustain me to help me continue in life. And just the whole, life and death part of this journey that we're all on, and becoming more aware that everything has a cycle, everything has a journey, and pay more attention. I think I'm getting this from indigenous wisdom, which is what came to the end of its life cycle so that I can continue my life. And then, you know, in what ways in the future, do I need to come to the end of my life cycle? You know, what, whether it relates to things that I'm doing and empowering the next generation? Empower my kids? When do I need to stop doing things and empower them to do things? So I think that's another thing that comes up for me, as we talk about circles.

Christina Roberts  14:07

I like that, because instead of the continual ascending, ascending, you're circling back around, right to give to the next generation, and I think, Gosh, there’s such wisdom that is all over the place with you when reading indigenous literature is all about that. So I appreciate you naming that, Chris. 

Kristina Kaiser  14:21

And we give food right to the next in a way we become food. And, it is fascinating, just to say this one guy from Greenland did talk about his role is to be a hunter, but he has a very strong ethic around like, I don't kill, to kill, right. And so they have a whole ritual that I don't quite understand, based on what I heard, but it sounds to me like they actually speak to the animals and the animals appear to talk within themselves and all but one will leave and as if the animal knows that this is what is needed. And this is the way that I am serving that circle right now, which blows my mind just to say. And I've never witnessed it, but what an experience it would be to be able to witness it and at least what can I take away from it in terms of offering respect and honor and care to my world around me?

 Well, thank you guys so much for this conversation. Hopefully, we will continue to visit indigenous wisdom in the future.

And now is the time where we take a moment to talk about what we are into. So tell me friends, what are we into?

 Christina Roberts  15:44

I am into my new space heater. So if you're listening to this in real time, we are in Wisconsin, and we woke up today, I think it was negative 14. So the cold is real. And I am podcasting from my basement. And Chris surprised me with this new space heater. And usually space heaters are kind of ugly and clunky and I was like I don't want a space heater. But it's kind of this nice sleek, it looks like one of those old timey radiators from when I grew up in St. Louis. The old kind of flats downtown would have these radiators and so it is warming me. I love it and so I'm grateful and appreciative and into my new space heater.

Chris Roberts  16:18

Nice. Yes, any extra heat we can have during this time is great. Well, you know we are in the middle of winter and I'm around discussions of oh my gosh, I can't wait for this to be over. I can't wait for this to end.  And a lot of people are sad about their current state of life. And so I'm thinking, well what is some happiness that I can have in my own life? And so I recently got a banjo.  I've never played a banjo before but I got a banjo about a month ago and the banjo is my happy place. It puts me in a place to dance and on the inside and maybe sometimes on the outside. I've been playing in the evenings and so I've really been into the banjo because the banjo is very happy and has some happy tunes.  And this probably will not come through on the recording well, but this is my current diddy that I am doing on the banjo. (Plays tune) That's all I have for you today,

Kristina Kaiser  17:52

I think it makes me happy, so you have succeeded. There is at least one happier person.  And space heaters that look really cool are also amazing so who-hoo for both of them. One of the things that I have been into this week is creating pretty spaces. So we had moved some of where we do some of our work down into a different space and have been working to make it beautiful. So in my current space I've put up twinkly lights and played around with tablecloths that have sparkles in that it fits me. I love creating aesthetic and beautiful spaces. So I am into that right now. 

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