E 233 What Is Discernment?

Today, we explore what discernment is and some practical ways to engage this spiritual practice.  We highlight several books that have informed our thinking around this topic, as well as episodes 22 & 23, Vocational Discernment Part 1 & 2.

To work with us, reach out  at robertscontemplative@gmail.com

Helpful books on discernment:

The Great Work of Your Life   by Stephen Cope

Falling Upward by Richard Rohr  

Pursuing God’s Will Together by Ruth Haley Barton

The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks  

The Dream Manager by Mattew Kelly & Patrick Lencioni

WHAT I’M INTO:

Pomegranate spritzers with Spindrift Belli-no

Quill pens from turkey feathers

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Transcript

What is Discernment

[00:00:00] 

Chris: Hello. It's great to be with you. Today we are talking about discernment. And this is a word that comes up quite often in contemplative circles, so we want to take some time to discuss what discernment is and how we might engage in the practice of discernment. We are going to be pulling ideas from several authors today, and we will list them all in the show notes, but I want to acknowledge that discernment is a topic that we've personally engaged with for more than a decade.

We appreciate wisdom from Ruth Haley Barton, Richard Rohr, Stephen Cope, and Ignatius of Loyola to help shape our thoughts on this topic. So to start us off, I'd like to talk about decision making and maybe how that might differ from discernment. And according to the Harvard Business Review, there are multiple sources that state that the [00:01:00] average adult in our contacts makes an average of 33,000 decisions in a day.

And much of this happens automatically on a subconscious level, like choosing a certain brand at the grocery store or choosing which spoon to stir your coffee with. Choosing the route you commute to work. We make decisions all day long, and yet we all know there are certain kinds of decisions that require a bit more reflection or insight.

Like how to handle a challenging relation or dynamic, how to spend our finances or our time, whether or not to pursue a career move. Those types of layered questions require more spaciousness and discernment to come to a wise decision, and that is what we're talking about today. 

Christina: That's helpful that you're distinguishing between the different types of decisions that we make, and I too find that the topic of discernment comes up often in [00:02:00] spiritual direction sessions and also with groups looking towards next steps, but maybe wanting to approach opportunities from a more reflective space versus just like a business lens or a bottom line, things like that.

And so as I've interacted with the practices of discernment, I can see how not only does it include, of course, looking at the data, paying attention to the opportunities in front of us, but also noticing nuance, paying attention to things that are a little bit more subtle. Making a decision based on a multitude of factors.

Even things like paying attention to the fact, do I feel an inner peace, or do I feel resistance? Do I notice patterns in my decision making as I'm sitting with this particular opportunity? And so likely, if you're listening to this podcast, you may find yourself or someone you know in a discernment process.

And so with that, I'd love just to take a few moments to talk about some ways that we might approach discernment. The first thing I encourage people to do is to actually write down what they're discerning. What is [00:03:00] the question? What is the opportunity that you're currently sitting with and need to make a decision around?

And this can seem obvious, okay, what do, what are we discerning? But I think it's an important step and one that I think just that in and of itself brings clarity. Yeah, because I think many times we know maybe in the back of our minds that we need to figure something out and we might have an idea of what it is, but not exactly, or not concisely.

So for example, someone might be thinking, oh gosh, should I put my resume together to look for a new job? I'm wondering if I should do that. That feels very different than what's currently keeping me at my job, and in what ways might I feel stirrings towards something new. Those are two very different, even energy levels or ways that you're approaching this topic.

Or another example, Ugh, how do I deal with this challenging relationship with my cousin? Or I'm going to see my cousin at an upcoming wedding and I feel uncomfortable when the topic of kids come up. So what do I need to do before? During and after the wedding so that my interactions with my cousin don't [00:04:00] distract me from enjoying the family wedding.

Again, very different of ugh, I know I have this cousin to deal with, versus, no, I'm gonna be specific around, this is what I need to discern for this situation. And so notice just even writing down and articulating what it is that we are discerning brings a great level of clarity that I found in my own life and with others that I work with.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I agree that the process of naming what it is that we're discerning it brings up new layers or new perspectives just in, in writing it down. I think I also want to say that discernment. Is not something that you do in a silo or by yourself, but I think discernment is intended to be communal.

I think there are elements of self-reflection. But I think it's also key to have others involved in the process. And I personally might journal what I'm discerning and that helps me have a focus. But when I say it out loud to another person, [00:05:00] I think it really helps me clarify even more and to articulate what is really going on inside of me so that interpersonal, dynamic is helped by having another person involved. And I think it's so important to pay attention to my internal reactions to what I'm discerning. And, but I, as I write it down, as I write down my questions or the situations, do I feel hope, dread, fear, embarrassment? And I think if someone is discerning.

Questions around a career move. Maybe they notice other thoughts and feelings, such as should I be further along than I am right now? I actually feel quite content with my current company. The thought of switching jobs right now feels overwhelming or the thought of switching jobs right now.

It feels very empowering. I think, those are different ways to look at it and whatever's emerging sheds light on [00:06:00] how you show up to the discernment topic. And I think sometimes doing a brain dump on a paper or even verbal brain dump with another person, it can be really helpful in getting these secondary or underlying thoughts and emotions out, out in the open for us.

Christina: Yeah, that's really important what you're naming. And just to put some more language around that, depending on who you read or what author, there's this practice called Holy indifference, or some people call it non-attachment or open-mindedness, but essentially it's a coming to discern with an open hand versus a tight fist that we have to have it go a certain way.

Or we're looking for a particular outcome. Discernment emerges in an open posture, and sometimes it takes us a few beats to get to that place of surrender and openness. And so I think what you're describing, Chris, about getting some of our initial and then secondary thoughts or emotions out there, I think is really helpful in getting us to that place of holding indifference.

And again, it's not indifference in the [00:07:00] sense of like apathy, but it's indifference in the sense of whichever way this goes, I'm gonna trust that. As I'm discerning. With my own paying attention to what's going on and with others, that the right outcome and path will come. And also too, I think sometimes we can get stressed out oh, I have to make the right decision, et cetera.

But discernment is a process and I think oftentimes it's the process of discernment even more than the decision itself. That is the growth and the opportunity for us. And I know in my own life or when I'm sitting with others, sometimes it can feel redundant oh my gosh, here I am talking about the same thing over again.

I feel like I'm circling around the same topic. And while sometimes, yeah, maybe we are getting stuck, I think there's a difference between spinning versus taking another lap around something and. Noticing a nuance or new data that we didn't have the last time we talked about this topic. And I think in a, very simple terms, sometimes I might have a decision with me or even, one of my kids or something, and I'll say, let's sleep on it.

My dad would always say that when I was a kid, sleep on it [00:08:00] and we'll talk about it in the morning. If it's a big decision, we're gonna sleep on it for a couple of days. And just that little bit of space of sleeping on it and not making a decision right then and there, deferring it a little bit, offer some spaciousness, and it's really amazing.

Something as simple as that, like waiting a day or two can bring a different perspective and things settle a little bit differently. A new question might emerge and bring some more clarity. And so I think it's important that if the. There's a bigger topic that we're trying to discover. There's no shame, there's no embarrassment in re things again and again, because I think sometimes we need that repetition even and repetition before another person to be like, oh, that just came outta my mouth. And I, I just, even yesterday I was sitting with someone and they said, this is the first time that this has come outta my mouth as I'm saying this to you aloud. Even though they were like internally churning and thinking about this thing, and it was a real aha moment for them that they now can then take that conversation to the next level.

But they needed that repetitive space to, to name into articulate that. That just feels really important for me to also add into this [00:09:00] context. 

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I know there are different ways of saying this. I personally really like wholly indifference or indifference.

I know some people would use the word detachment, and that, how do I separate my ego from this? But I think I really like indifference. And it, what you're saying is space. Allows you the opportunity to really identify, am I holding onto something, do I have does this sticky for me?

And I think allowing that space really lets you navigate. I really am holding onto this. I'm not indifferent. And so that right there is telling in itself. So I really appreciate the word indifference. Or what indifference brings to discernment, or some people might use the word detachment and just how important it's to the process.

Christina: And I think going back to your point earlier, Chris, around the different types of decisions that we make. When I first read that Harvard Business Review, I'm like 33,000 decisions that like is [00:10:00] overwhelm. That doesn't even, I can't, my brain can't wrap myself around that. But then hearing you say, oh yeah, okay, it's what kind of spoon I'm choosing or.

What you're gonna wear. Of course we do make decisions all day long, and thankfully most of them are in our subconscious and we just do it. We're on autopilot, right? Our brain has the ability to sift out what's important. And but I think that, of course there are discernment pieces that do require a little bit more of our conscious mind.

Again, how we're gonna maybe spend our money or time, but then even deeper of, do I move, do I relocate? Do I marry this person? Whatever kind of bigger decisions do I decide to adopt or have kids now, et cetera. And so I think with that. Chris, you also mentioned there's the personal discernment and then also communal discernment.

And I think oftentimes some of our decisions impact more than one person. And so maybe it's, a department at work or it's, our family situation or things where multiple voices need to be invited into the discernment process because the decision is not just impacting us, but it's impacting.

Other people that are important. And so with that, again, we're just doing a high level [00:11:00] view of discernment, but when I have worked with people in retreat settings we're setting aside very intentional time to think through some of these things. There's other factors at play, right?

So values, right? How does this choice line up with my core values? And so maybe there's a, an opportunity to reflect a little bit more on my values and. If these are my values and sometimes it's a matter of this decision actually really aligns with my values, this decision might look good on paper. But in reality, if I go to the depth of who I am and my values, it actually doesn't quite align.

There's something a little bit off and I need to pay attention to that. Off also things like, long-term, short term. Sometimes there's short term implications to some of the decisions that we make, and in the short term we might choose something because we know long term it's going to end up bearing the kind of fruit or the impact that we want.

And so for a short period of time, we may have to frame things a little bit differently. I was in a conversation again with someone this week where. We tossed around the idea of an interim plan [00:12:00] and there was something about that gave freedom of if I can make this decision and have an interim frame around it of like maybe 18 months, and this was a longer thing that this person was processing that felt like very freeing and gave opportunity to bring in other people into this context that maybe have expertise in an interim role that then would free this person up to be thinking a little bit more long term about two to five years down the road how they wanted to develop this particular, the project that they were working on. So again, I think there's a lot of different ways that we can talk about and unpack discernment. And although we're briefly mentioning it this on the podcast, I just also wanna acknowledge that, I, in my retreats that I do. Often I have those bubble diagrams, and in the middle is what it is that we're discerning.

And then we have lines with other little bubbles that might tap into values or short term, long term peace. We mentioned that earlier. Do I have a sense of peace or is there resistance as I think about this decision and just kind having bubbles to name that. And then there may be a [00:13:00] particular bubble that.

Is really popping out to us that we need to give some more attention to in order to be able to progress into the decision making way that we want to, to that discernment. So again, just emphasizing it's a process. It's a journey. It's not just a quick Yes no. Again, there's lots of decisions that we make that are quick Yes nos.

But this is something a little bit different that we're describing. 

Chris: Yeah. And I really appreciate you, you bringing up short-term long-term values and I, I think. Having worked with groups or having been in groups and discernment be been a part of the process, I think we, we all have different engagement with time.

And what one person might feel is short term, another person might feel that's actually not short at all. I'm, some people think in, in terms of hours for decisions where other people think in terms of days or weeks. And so I think the different dynamics in personality come out whenever you're.

You're looking at [00:14:00] time and how you engage with discerning and time and again, the whole values. I appreciate looking at values because I think our values change over time. They can, I think we probably have some core values that maybe stick with us, and I think, just looking at 'em periodically can be super helpful.

Christina: Yeah, I agree. I think our values can evolve. So for example, we both value hospitality and sometimes we have to discern what hospitality looks like in a various season. Or even as we're thinking of different projects around the house where we're gonna be putting money and time towards something, how does that align with the type of hospitality that we off to offer?

So yeah, I think definitely our values. Maybe they don't change or maybe they evolve a little bit, or there's again, opportunities to nuance that a little bit. As we're concluding our episode today, like we mentioned earlier, we have some books that will be listed in our show notes that can help you dive deeper, so we encourage you to check those out.

Also back, way back from 2021. We have episodes 22 and 23. Of the [00:15:00] Contemplative Life Podcast where we did a two part series on vocational discernment. So if you want to check that out, we encourage you to go back and check that out. And then also, if there's individuals or groups that are looking for some spaciousness around some discernment areas, please reach out to us at roberts contemplative@gmail.com.

And we would love to set up a time to meet with you or your group around maybe it's a discernment retreat or maybe you want some one-on-one sessions to discern something going on in your life. We would be happy to walk alongside you.

Chris: Beautiful. I really appreciate the conversation today and now is the part of the podcast where we talk about what we are into. So what are we into? 

Christina: I am into pomegranate spritzers and so my, one of my kids loves like fancy fun drinks. And we've been experimenting with pomegranate juice made into spritzers [00:16:00] and I love spin drift.

And lately spin drift has been like overdelivering in my opinion, on some really fun flavors. We recently had a multi lemonade type. Box that we got from Costco, and then I recently discovered Belly No, which is peach and Strawberry Spin. Drift. I think it, yeah. Anyway it's, oh, it's a cocktail.

I am into pomegranate spritzers. One of my kids actually loves making all sorts of fun little drink concoctions. And so we've been experimenting with pomegranate juice and different spin drifts. And I have to say I'm a longtime spin drift lover, and lately I feel like they have been overdelivering in some really fun ways.

So this summer we bought a multi-pack. Lemonade, like pink lemonade, lime lemonade, all sorts of things from Costco. And then I recently, like a couple weeks ago, discovered a new spin drift Bellino, which is peach and strawberry spin drift. And so we've been putting that with the pomegranate juice and it is so good and yummy.

My daughter specifically likes to [00:17:00] put it in clear jars so that we can see the color of it and she likes to take it to school. Sometimes we'll put fruit in it. So I am very much into pomegranate spritzers specifically with spin drift. 

Chris: That does sound lovely. I am into I've always really liked, pens, nice pens. I like fountain pens. And I recently I I do a lot of spiritual guidance, spiritual companioning outdoors, and I've come across some beautiful Turkey tail feathers and wing feathers, and so I've collected them. And I've just been going on a YouTube binge learning how to make quills from Turkey feathers, goose feathers.

And I am on my fifth Turkey feather right now because it is actually very challenging to make a quill from a Turkey feather. There's, there's eight [00:18:00] steps in the process, and I realize I don't have a sharp enough knife and I need some tools to make an efficient quill pin from a goose feather or Turkey feather, but I will not be deterred by my inability to make them right now.

I'm not gonna be a, become a professional, I don't think, but I am set on making one functional quill pin from a goose feather or tricky feather. So that's what I've been into lately, 

Christina: and it is fun walking into your office and seeing various feathers around. I will admit. 

Chris: Thank you so much for joining us.

It was good to be with you. Hope to see you again next week. Make it a great week.