E 172 Forest Bathing (with Pastor Zayna Thomley)

Today we are joined by Pastor & Certified Forest Bather, Zayna Thomley.  We discuss what to expect in a forest bathing session, the importance of community and nature and how to embrace obstacles that might come with the outdoors.

Follow Zayna at:

https://wisdom-and-wonder.com/

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Transcript

Forest Bathing

[00:00:00] Chris: Hello. It's great to be with you today. I'm grateful to introduce pastor Zaina Thomley to the podcast.

[00:00:07] Zaina is a certified force bather and I had the chance to attend one of her sessions and I thought it would be great to have her share with us on the podcast. Zaina, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:00:20] Zayna: Hi, thanks for having me. 

[00:00:22] Chris: Before we dive in, I imagine the term forest bathing is new for people. Can you give us just a definition of what that term means?

[00:00:31] Zayna: Sure. Forest bathing is a quite literal translation from the Japanese word shingren yoku which. Translates something like taking in the forest atmosphere, right? So experiencing the forest through all of our senses. Some people like to say that Shinrin yoku is an ancient practice.

[00:00:50] The term was coined in the 80s. It's not that old. I was coined in the 80s. And It means it's a practice that comes out of Japan but out of their their forestry department, right? And this idea of promoting use of the forest as a practice. Okay. Thank you. a wellness practice and a contemplative practice.

[00:01:13] So when we're forest bathing, it's about more than just going on a hike, which I love and have loved my whole life being in the forest. But it's about an intentionality of being among trees and you can forest bathe in things that aren't forest forest is the root of the practice, but the practice can be applied to.

[00:01:32] Meadows and prairies and lakesides as well, but it's a practice of, tuning your senses to your surroundings in the forest and to the trees in particular, but but everything that is there. I don't know if that makes sense but bathing, surrounding yourself in the atmosphere of the forest.

[00:01:51] Christina: No, that's a helpful definition. And I think often, and it sounds like even from the Japanese perspective, this emphasis on ecology and enjoying and engaging with the ecology. And yet there's this beautiful spiritual component that I'm hearing also woven in. So I'm curious if you could speak a little bit as to in what ways when one forest bathes, how is that an avenue to connect more to God?

[00:02:11] Zayna: Yeah, I want to be really careful there because, I definitely add a spiritual component there. The Japanese practice of forest bathing. It has, it has hints of ancient spiritual practice, right? It is very much a secular practice and it is rooted deeply in the academy and in public service.

[00:02:32] And so practitioners of. of forest bathing all bring their own piece to it. I can't do forest bathing separate from my spirituality, right? That is a really core piece of who I am and what I bring to forest bathing in my own practice and when I lead it with other people. I think spiritually for me, it is forest bathing is often something that's done communally and my practice of faith and my practice of Christianity is necessarily communal.

[00:03:04] I'm a local church pastor in my day job, and that's because my faith in my understanding of my faith can only be lived out with other people. What forest bathing does is it. It helps to pull in the natural world and the rest of the natural world into that community. So there's a really, for me, there's a really clear understanding and an opening of understanding God's community and God's people, not just as other human beings, but that trees are a part of that, and squirrels are a part of that and lichen is a part of that.

[00:03:42] And so how do we understand how do I understand my call to to feed and care for God's world and God's people not just referring to humanity, right? Like that it's a spiritual practice in community. When I leave forest bathing, it's very often not just myself, right? Like I go out and do things, but it's really meant to be practiced with other people.

[00:04:05] And so being able to build that eco community in even just in a couple hours feels really sacred to me. It feels sacred. Part of my role as a guide is to hold space for the community to open up their circle to the natural world around them.

[00:04:22] Chris: That's lovely. We're talking, I think one one of the stories that comes to mind for me, I am a spiritual director and I do a lot of directing spiritual companioning outside. I would say 90 percent of my. Spiritual companion is outdoors. And one of the things that I've noticed between let's say an inside experience and an outside experience is there's the, there's a level of openness that happens with people that are experiencing spiritual companioning outdoors that just happens much more quickly than it does outside.

[00:04:59] Indoors. So maybe you can speak to some of that. I've heard, that trees give off certain things. But what is your take on maybe why that would be the case? 

[00:05:08] Zayna: That's interesting. I haven't thought about that, but I wonder if there is my first thought when you started talking was that when you're indoors there is less to take it right?

[00:05:18] Even in the most beautiful of rooms. There, there is less for your senses to experience than there is when you're outside because the purpose of buildings is to control the environment. And when you are outside of the building, you don't, you lose that control. And so I, I wonder what it does to our senses.

[00:05:39] And to our mind to have our senses engaged. As we are in conversation or in discernment. Yeah, that's really powerful. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I imagine it is. You mentioned something about trees giving off and I think that is really interesting. So that the birth of forest bathing, comes out of this kind of experiments in the 80s, mostly in Japan.

[00:06:01] And there was a lot of. Government funded studies, like really scientific research studies about what it does to our bodies to be in the forest and among trees and because it's been so successful the amount of science and the amount of data that has come out of that has been really large, and so we've been able to learn a lot.

[00:06:19] And we already know that having contemplative practices can be physically good for our bodies, right? We know that it can help lower our heart rate and all kinds of good things, no matter where we do it. What the research has been showing, particularly out of Japan, is that doing those same practices, but outside as, Significantly enhanced benefits and doing it particularly among trees.

[00:06:44] So not just outside, but among trees has even more advanced benefits. And then there's other research that's showing trees give off a hormone called bitensides. And it's a part of their natural their natural immune system and kind of their defense system against disease. And there is increasing research that humans can take that in when we're among trees, and that it helps our own immune system, right?

[00:07:09] It gives us a literal, boost in fighting off colds. And how much that is and to what degree I am not a scientist but I think that's, This idea that we interact with nature and that our bodies are interacting with nature, whether we're paying attention to it or not, and even more so when we are I think says something about how it opens us and our minds and our bodies and in really cool ways.

[00:07:34] Christina: Yeah, this is fascinating. I'm thinking of someone that I companion and he was recently talking about a book and it goes through the scriptures and all the different references of trees and the ways that trees are part of our interaction with God, creation, etc. Zeta, I'm curious you and I love you talking about the communal aspect of this.

[00:07:53] Can you, like for someone that's brand new to this and trying to wrap our minds around what this might look like, could you give like an example of a sample forest bathing, like what might one experience what, what happens? Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:08:04] Zayna: Yeah. Cause it is, it's people have no idea what to expect.

[00:08:07] before somebody goes on their first forest bathing experience, I like to remind them that it's not a hike, right? Like we're not, there's not an end point in goal or in our minds. I personally, as a guide have an end point in our mind, right? Like I spend some time kind of mapping what we're going to do and holding that space.

[00:08:24] Ideally, a forest bathing session, in my mind, is at least 90 minutes to an hour. I know, Chris, we did it at a workshop once where we had to minimize it and make it really short, but in my mind, 2 hours is the ideal time for forest bathing to happen. So when someone arrives, we gather in a group, I give a little introduction expectations, what to expect, and then we begin really with a simple sensory mindfulness practice.

[00:08:53] So often we'll sit down, I carry these really great little, I don't know, hiking camping stools that are really light, and so people can bring those, or we'll sit on blankets, or if it's that we'll sit on the ground. And just take some time to check in with our bodies, right? To let go of all the stuff you're bringing in and to be present in the moment.

[00:09:13] What happens after that is a series of invitations. So often what that looks like is that we'll walk a little bit and then we'll stop in a particular place. And I invite the participants to do something and then give them a few minutes to respond to that invitation. So invitations often have to do with a particular sense.

[00:09:34] So often we begin with sight because we many humans are very visual beings. And things like go out and notice how the light is changing. In front of you, right? Go out and notice the smallest details that you can find in front of you and then giving 7 to 10 minutes for people to do that.

[00:09:58] I tell people that there are invitations. They're not commands. So if you are out in the forest and something else calls to you, go do that. And allow your body and your spirit and the trees to dictate what happens in that space. And then, so we do that about three or four times, depending on where we are and what the expectations are.

[00:10:21] The final invitation is always. an invitation to tea. So we try to check in with each of our senses but I don't ever ask people to eat anything off the forest floor. I'm not an expert forager, so we're not gonna, lick any trees or anything. But it is important to like, have that taste.

[00:10:40] So we always end it's not, and people like to think, oh, it's a Japanese tea ceremony, but it's not. It's just drinking tea together in kind of a, it actually. Becomes really sacramental to me and how I experience it. And I like to serve, especially as somebody in, the northern part of North America, pine tea.

[00:11:00] So tea made from pine needles, which a lot of people have not experienced before, but it gives you this chance to literally taste the forest that we're in and it's this really, if you've never had it before, it's a really mild flavor. And it's almost like a pink tea. The needles. Turn the water like a light pinkish color.

[00:11:18] Yeah, and that's marks the end of that time. So there's walking in between there. Some of the invitations call for you to just sit and close your eyes. One of the best ones I did was out at Holy Wisdom here in the area. And it was the time of year when all of the walnuts first dropped from the tree and they're still in their fruit.

[00:11:40] And if you've ever smelled a walnut, they have this really strong, And a lot of the people we were with had actually never picked up a walnut before, before it, before the fruit falls away. And so we just sat for seven minutes with our eyes closed smelling walnuts, right? And The experience of going deeper in the layers of that and experiencing like a whole new smell and then people started to say Oh I have a memory of this now, not because I picked up walnuts, but because I've walked through the forest or woods or the world at this time of year.

[00:12:15] And yeah, this is what it smells like. And so things like that can be really. Really fun. But yeah, so it's a series of invitations, some slow walking, sometimes some sitting and tea, and then it comes to an end. After each of the invitations, there's an in, there's a chance to come back communally.

[00:12:35] So we call, I forgot to mention this, we call people back to share what they noticed. not with any expectation or judgment, right? So that's part of this practice. And part of the contemplative practice is to enter into it without judgment. And you went out and you noticed the light, let's come back and share what we noticed.

[00:12:51] And for some people, that's really literal. And for some people that can go really deep, really quickly.

[00:12:57] Chris: I think having experienced one of your force bathing sessions, it was lovely. And you mentioned the tea at the end which for me I spend quite a bit of time in nature and I love the immersiveness of the guided tour that you took us on, but there was just something about the tea at the end that was, it was bodily taking in the whole experience.

[00:13:21] And so I just really appreciated that ending. But, as I think about one who might not be familiar with nature can you speak to obstacles that people might face as we spend time in nature? Perhaps temperature, bugs, can you speak to some obstacles? Yeah, let me, 

[00:13:40] Zayna: oh I feel really bad because I I agreed to lead a walk for a UCC church in Janesville last fall, and it was coming to the end of Nice weather.

[00:13:52] And the day we were supposed to lead it, it thunderstorms, right? My whole drive there, there's thunder and lightning and rain and it was really unfortunate, but the thunder and stuff passed. And the rain was still there. And so what I told the group that was planning to be there was that if anybody was willing to walk in the rain with me, that I would still guide and that I was willing to do that.

[00:14:15] I you do have to watch out for weather, right? Like it can significantly shape the experience. What I would say is. Be a little brave. Part of the guides job is to keep you safe and to be watching for the other stuff so that you can be present in the moment. And my experience of guiding in the rain have been some of the best, right?

[00:14:39] Like suddenly when you're in the woods in the rain, it is a full body experience, right? Even before the tea, right? Like you're feeling that on your body on your face. On a different level and of course it can get to a place where it's no longer enjoyable and you can't stay there and you're just going to be, mad and grumpy.

[00:14:57] But if it's not that it can be a really just awesome experience. You do have to dress for the weather. You have to be prepared as a guide. I, I carry. Yeah, simple things like a first aid kit and that kind of stuff. But we're not climbing over rocks. We're not doing anything too dangerous.

[00:15:18] So good shoes and a good coat will get you a long way. On that note, I, one of my other favorite things to do is winter walks. So I did a number of winter walks this last Few months and when in the times we did have snow, it can be just really awesome because you're taking that in a really different way.

[00:15:37] But, yeah, I think if you're not familiar with contemplative practices, I actually think it can be a really easy way to enter that because there is a. tactile thing to do and to hold on to and to be guided through. I have in my own personal prayer and spiritual practice life I'm a diagnosed ADHD as a childhood person and having a full body moving and like lots of sensory parts of that can actually really help still my mind and it can be a great entry point for people into that kind of practice and that kind of mindfulness in a way that I think a lot of people I often struggled with contemplative practices that asked me to sit and to be still because then my mind can Go in a million, million places.

[00:16:31] Yeah. 

[00:16:31] Christina: This has been so helpful. I'm wondering in conclusion, if there's, if people want to learn more or be in touch, I don't know if you have a website or something that can point people to some of your guided forest bathing. We'd love to take a moment to hear about that. 

[00:16:43] Zayna: Yeah. So you can find me online.

[00:16:46] My website is 

[00:16:48] Zayna: and 

[00:16:49] wonder Wisconsin. And you can find me. I'm pretty easily findable on the internet though. Hoseina Tomley Middleton community church. You can learn a lot about forest bathing. I trained with a school called the Forest Therapy School and they can be found online too, which was also, we didn't get into that.

[00:17:07] It's a great experience because you, I trained online, which is, you don't think about that in a forest bathing. Training experience, but the way we did it is that we would all go out forest bathing in different parts of the world. There was somebody in my class in Central America, and we would all be out in people in Canada, and we'd all be out in the forest together practicing.

[00:17:26] And so that was really, they do really excellent work. Yeah, those would be the places I would go to. 

[00:17:32] Chris: Wonderful. Thank you so much for just a lovely conversation. It was a delight to have you on. 

[00:17:39] Zayna: Thank you. It's been great to be here.

[00:17:41] Chris: And now is the part of the podcast where we talk about what we are into. What are we into? 

[00:17:52] Christina: I'll stick with the theme here of being outside. I am into out of the box picnic food ideas. It's the weather's turning warm here in Wisconsin and next weekend we're planning a picnic and I was talking to one of my kids, I'm like, what are some things we can do for picnics that aren't just the standard, sandwich, chips, whatever.

[00:18:08] And we're expanding our outdoor charcuterie board. experiences dipped sauces. And so I am into out of the box picnic yummies.

[00:18:16] Chris: I am into this not because I'm personally engaging in it, but I'm into track season. For those that follow the school year it is track season and I have three Two Children who are involved in track. And it was an amazing day this weekend. We got first and shot put. We got second in the long jump and It was a four hour immersive experience.

[00:18:44] And I have a little one who was just running around on the middle of the football field and, he's pretending it's football season. But it was it was a delightful outdoor experience I am into, I

[00:18:59] Zayna: That's fun. I have a three year old who just started soccer last week, which is. Excellent. It's fun. And on that I think what I've been into really lately, we've had beautiful weather here, as you were saying in the Madison area. And I have been into, I've spent spending a lot of time at the Arboretum and my son and I have adventure Fridays.

[00:19:19] Every Friday we go on adventures in the morning. And so lately, a lot of those have been at the Arboretum and he's been teaching me a lot about guiding. And that he takes it really slow and he notices lots of things like dirt. And we spend a lot of time staring at dirt. But recently there are a couple of cranes that are nested at the Arboretum.

[00:19:40] And you can get, they're very close to a boardwalk and you can get really close and they've put up shields and you can watch them through the windows. So checking in on the cranes has been high on Our list really the other day we were there and we saw them switching spots to go in and turn the eggs And it was just fascinating I could stand there watching them turn eggs for a long time

[00:20:02] Chris: That is does sound lovely. Thank you so much for joining us and we will see you again next week